Anna Waters

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:24:19
Unknown
Flow. Unleashed. Unleashed. Unleashed. Do you feel that your mindset and mental ability is your greatest asset? And if not, why not?

00:00:24:21 - 00:00:49:14
Unknown
Welcome to flow unleashed. I'm Doctor Cameron Noseworthy, scientist and High-Performance coach to multiple world champions. In this show, we unpack key insights on specific topics so that you are kept up to date with the latest science and practice of human performance.

00:00:49:16 - 00:01:15:07
Unknown
But I imagine the day you've been waiting for, training for, and dreaming about is finally here. Over the past few days, your nerves have been on the rise. You're both excited and nervous. You just want the event to be over. You didn't sleep that well last night as you kept thinking about today. And you haven't been able to eat much either.

00:01:15:08 - 00:01:39:10
Unknown
You can't get your mind off the upcoming event. How will it play out? How will you perform? What will others think of you and your results? What will happen if you fail? With all the hard work, be worth it. If I don't get the results that I want. Tick tock. The minutes and hours pass in a glacial manner.

00:01:39:12 - 00:02:03:23
Unknown
Finally you've arrived. You're few minutes away from going on, but the butterflies fluttering around your belly trickling into your chest. A spike of anxiety rushes through your veins, sending your head racing with anything but the first steps of your performance that you know you need to focus on. Your heart rate is increasing. Your palms are beginning to sweat.

00:02:04:01 - 00:02:40:18
Unknown
You start to have second thoughts. Doubt enters the mind. Why am I here? I'm not meant to do this. Surely there is someone better suited to do this. Oh, why did I say yes? We've all been there and experienced this inner turmoil before. An important event. Whether it is a speech, competitive sporting match meeting, presentation, musical performance, exam or even going out on a date, the days and moments before an important event can make us squirm and send us crazy.

00:02:40:20 - 00:03:08:08
Unknown
It is at these precise times that our body physiologically into the fight, flight, freeze or flow situation determining whether we make a fool of ourselves or live to remember an amazing performance. Do we tighten up and grit our way through it? Giving a wooden, subpar performance of ourselves? Or do we pull the ripcord and exit at the earliest possible chance?

00:03:08:10 - 00:03:37:04
Unknown
Do we allow the anxiety to get the better of ourselves and fumble through the event? Or do we grab hold of this arousal and leapfrog into flow? What often determines our response when it matters most is whether we have done our mental training. What makes the biggest difference of all is whether we have proactively trained our mind to deal with moments such as this.

00:03:37:06 - 00:04:01:20
Unknown
Do we get distracted by the noise in our heads and the flutters in our body, or do we choose to direct our attention towards a point of focus that we have rehearsed to guide us into an optimal state of functioning? One individual who has both personal and professional experience, and using the mind to engineer an optimal performance when it matters, is our guest, Doctor Anna Waters.

00:04:01:22 - 00:04:31:20
Unknown
Anna has a PhD in Applied Psychology and over 25 years of practical experience in performance psychology, working with many of the UK's national sporting and performing institutions such as the British Olympic Association, UK Athletics and National Ballet companies. I'm delighted to invite Anna to the show. Welcome, Anna. Thanks, Cameron to be here. I've been looking forward to coming and talking to you today, so it's a pleasure to be here.

00:04:31:22 - 00:04:54:19
Unknown
What does optimal or peak performance look like to you? Is it for me? I think when you talk about peak performance, I've got sort of 25 years of working in the field of performance psychology, and for me, peak performance is when somebody is able to really tap into all of their resources, so to be fully engaged with their performance.

00:04:54:21 - 00:05:24:08
Unknown
So I think often we think of peak performance as perhaps be something like somebody winning a gold medal or some sort of really high level performance. But I think what I've really learned over the years is for me, peak performance is when you have an athlete or a person performing in any context, and they're able to really fully engage with that performance and tap into 100% of the resources available to them on that day.

00:05:24:10 - 00:06:07:07
Unknown
That, for me, is really peak performance. So a good example that springs to mind for me is if we think back to the last Olympics in Tokyo, I worked with quite a few athletes up to the Tokyo Olympics, and a few did extremely well and won medals. But the one performance that always stands out to me as an athlete that I've worked with for probably about six years, and that worked really hard to get a place at the Olympics and that they everything into their training and preparation and really on the day when they came to perform, everything just came together and they delivered a massive PB.

00:06:07:09 - 00:06:32:23
Unknown
And when I can still picture his face coming out the arena, this beaming smile, the pride in himself for having been out to delivered just at the right moment. And then when you look slightly to the side and saw the scoreboard, he'd actually come like a million miles last. There's no medal contender. But for him, he had delivered everything he could on that day.

00:06:32:23 - 00:06:59:09
Unknown
And that for me. Still, when I think of the Tokyo Olympics, I think of his smile and the fact that he was so proud, even though in the press people picked up on the fact he was miles away from a medal and things like that, but he was able to focus and deliver and not be distracted with fears or thinking about medaling or all these other distract us that can be so hard to manage and deal with.

00:06:59:11 - 00:07:23:05
Unknown
Yeah, I love that separation of the outcome and the results from that personal performance and that that space that we might get in where we actualize our own ability, regardless of what that means subjectively to a judge or what that means on the scoreboard, and being able to be in that kind of optimal state of functioning by the by the sounds of it.

00:07:23:07 - 00:07:48:12
Unknown
And you started as a, as a jockey. I did, yeah. Yeah. So growing up I was very into horse riding and I had a pony and competed in so showjumping and dressage and cross-country. But when it's not 14, I read a book about a girl becoming a jockey. And much to my parents frustration, I decided that's what I wanted to be.

00:07:48:12 - 00:08:11:20
Unknown
And they they did support me, but made sure I stayed at school to do my A-levels and again to my frustration at the time. But yeah, I took myself off to Newmarket at the age of 18 and spent six years working in the world of horse racing. When I progressed up from being a stable girl to an apprentice jockey, and then also was able to travel all over the world.

00:08:11:20 - 00:08:33:09
Unknown
So I lived in six different countries. I was very often the only good as well riding, so it was a really challenging situation, but I think it really taught me what it's like to actually have to earn your living as a professional sports person. You've got to pay the bills, you've got to be able to perform, you've got to be able to deliver.

00:08:33:11 - 00:09:04:15
Unknown
And as a woman as well as a young lady at that, that time again, often I was up against all the male jockeys having to fight for getting rides in the races, as well as being on that sort of even par with them in the race as well. So I think it really taught me how to be resilient and how to be able to adapt to lots of different situations and be challenged and have to deliver and it's a very high pressured situations.

00:09:04:15 - 00:09:23:18
Unknown
And it also really got me interested in what sports psychology is, because I started looking at some of the other riders around me, and I noticed how, you know, if you look round the stable, had all the people looking after the horses were all people that at one point probably had wanted to be a jockey, but hadn't quite made it.

00:09:23:19 - 00:09:46:16
Unknown
And I started thinking, you know, some of these riders are so talented, such brilliant riders and so good at training the horses, but when they're being put into a race context or had to perform under pressure, they often just didn't have the mental resources or skills to be able to deliver. And so that got me to start to think, what's going on here?

00:09:46:18 - 00:10:11:19
Unknown
What's this connection between how we actually perform and what's going on in our minds, and what can we actually start to do to understand that and help people to be able to manage these challenges. So be able to perform under pressure, because I often noticed that the top jockeys, if you'd see them in a race after, if you'd see them training horses that were perhaps a bit lazy, but you'd put them into race.

00:10:11:19 - 00:10:38:18
Unknown
And the bigger the race, the better they often perform. So there seemed to be people that had this natural ability to deliver a under pressure, and a lot of people that really struggled to be able to perform. Yeah, fascinating. And that must have been such a interesting journey competing as a minority. And I'm imagining there's a whole cultural, complexity there that you must have had to navigate through.

00:10:38:18 - 00:11:07:09
Unknown
And do you believe, when looking at those jockeys, that their ability to perform under pressure was talent or nurtured or learned? I think it it both probably some to just have that natural inclination or understanding or ability to perform. And I think again, some people naturally. Yeah. Like that pressure. I'm sort of one of those people that I, I like to be pushed.

00:11:07:09 - 00:11:26:10
Unknown
And, you know, I thrived in that situation because I like to give to them to pressure and I remember when I was at school, my teachers used if I wrote an essay and had the weekend to do it at having something in that was mediocre. But if I was in an exam and I had to do it in half an hour and get it done, I would be able to deliver it.

00:11:26:11 - 00:11:49:09
Unknown
And I think for a lot of people, sometimes that pressure is what you need to be able to deliver at the highest level. In other people. It's overwhelming or too much. And what are some of the common issues and challenges performers come to you with when wanting to perform at that optimal level, but perhaps struggled to do so day in and day out?

00:11:49:11 - 00:12:18:03
Unknown
Yeah, I think one of the most common factors, because I work with sportspeople, but also performers on the stage, and then a sort of whole array of different domains. But one of the key areas that people come to see me for is often about sort of that, well, often performance on the stage or come see me in there saying, I've got really bad stage fright, I've got anxiety about performing on stage in the same and still getting nervous before performing.

00:12:18:06 - 00:12:45:11
Unknown
And that's often I always think you have to look at that, what's going on there? Because sometimes people are just trying to address that fear or that anxiety. So the superficial but for me it's about understanding why you feel anxious. So if somebody comes to me and says, I've been having panic attacks and, you know, if a performer is coming to see me have been lying in a pool on the side of the stage and able to get up and perform, they've been so anxious.

00:12:45:13 - 00:13:12:22
Unknown
And it's really important to, you know, you have to understand what's what's behind that. Sometimes people just say, no, calm down or relax or it'll be okay. But it's so you've got to really understand what's going on for that performer, what's causing that anxiety. And often it comes back to a fear or a belief or a pattern that behavior that you always get nervous before you perform and it can escalate or.

00:13:13:00 - 00:13:32:12
Unknown
Yeah, a lot of a lot. I'd say one of the key to the fear. So unhelpful beliefs that I come across is that to to worry about being good enough. I was just working with a performer a few weeks ago who again came to me saying they had really bad stage fright and wanted to address strategies just to help with that.

00:13:32:12 - 00:14:00:09
Unknown
And it you know, within a couple of sessions it became clear that actually it was this concern about being good enough that was making them feel so anxious about stepping out on stage. So it and that a lot of people, you know, if you think about somebody presenting, at doing a presentation at work or going for an interview, again, we have these natural sort of fears often of what are people going to think I need to fit in?

00:14:00:09 - 00:14:25:20
Unknown
I need to be good enough, I'm going to be judged. And it's about tapping down into that and thinking, actually, what is that fear? Where does that come from? And then learning strategies and replacing that with something that's more helpful as well. And then learning strategies to be able to manage. So let's say someone came to and discussed that anxiety of going out into that big stage.

00:14:25:22 - 00:14:48:00
Unknown
I'm anxious, I get nervous, my body tightens up and my mind starts racing and I struggle to kind of focus on my lines or the the actual point in front of me, or the presentation I need to give. And you uncover that they've got some unhelpful belief, you know, perhaps they've linked the outcome with their self-worth. And if I fail, I won't be worthy.

00:14:48:00 - 00:15:11:18
Unknown
Or perhaps they generally don't feel good enough and their self-esteem is low, or, whatever sort of scenario that may present itself. How how would you help them? What would be your process to helping them? Yeah, I think what I was dispersed through with any client or performer that I'm working with is look at actually, how do they want to be as a performer?

00:15:11:21 - 00:15:31:20
Unknown
So a lot of us spend all our lives saying, you know, I don't want to be anxious. I don't want to be overwhelmed. I don't want to forget my lines. I don't want to stumble over the finish line. I don't want to miss the hurdle in the race. And actually, my starting point with everybody is always actually, how do you want to be as a performer?

00:15:31:22 - 00:15:52:19
Unknown
What's important to you? Do you want to become the focus? You know, and I don't give people those qualities. I will work with people to help them find what's important to their performance and even if they're quite near to a prefer a sport or performing on the stage, they do know people know what they need and that will change sometimes.

00:15:52:19 - 00:16:20:16
Unknown
It's not always I had two performers working with recently. A musician who came to me in the first session identified 15 of these qualities. I want to be motivated, focused, engaging, confident. And then we did about six sessions where they really explored this and started to understand about what was important to their performance and to really engage, like we talked about with peak performance, be able to actually really engage with that performance.

00:16:20:16 - 00:16:47:13
Unknown
And then these are the qualities change within six sessions actually. Then it refined it down to about five qualities that were important to them and that they could really focus on. So when you're preparing for your performance, it's shifting. We have a sort of finite amount of attention, and if you're focusing on all the things you don't want to happen and the worries and anxieties and concerns, it's likely that those things are going to happen.

00:16:47:14 - 00:17:08:03
Unknown
But actually, if you shift that and say, I want to be consistent, I want to be focused in order to be confident as a musician, I might need to stand to have my shoulders back, touch the ground, feel my violin in a specific way, or a sports person think about that footfall on the track or again, that sort of physical sensation.

00:17:08:04 - 00:17:38:05
Unknown
So for me, it's very much about focusing on what you need to do to be able to perform well. And then but you also at the same time have to think about why. Why have you got that worry about being good enough? Where's that come from. And also then start to address that. So for some people it might be a coach growing up said you're never going to be really good at this or you're too short, you're not going to make yes or a jockey attitude, or you know that sometimes that is the case.

00:17:38:05 - 00:18:08:15
Unknown
But again, see, lots of people are overcome these challenges, but often coach said something that is perhaps a flip comment to the coach or something they've just thought or said, but that can stay with that athlete for years I've worked with musicians and athletes in sport that have 20 years. They've carried this belief around that. They're always going to struggle with certain parts of their performance, so they're always going to get anxious or nervous getting.

00:18:08:15 - 00:18:33:12
Unknown
And I recently had similarly had a coach that said about 20 is go about a particular technique. That's something you're just never going to be good at. And we rarely discussed that and said, actually is do you want to hang on to that belief now? Because now's your moment to actually say that was what that coach thought at 20 years ago, but look at where you are now.

00:18:33:13 - 00:18:54:05
Unknown
Do you want to hang on to that belief and let it be impacting your performance, or can you let that go and start to think, actually, I am good enough. This is part of my performance. This is something I can do. This is part of where I'm progressing to. Yes, I think for me it's that it's being able to look at things from lots of different.

00:18:54:05 - 00:19:19:11
Unknown
When you talk about anxiety or peak performances, it's looking at or managing, belief. You've got to look at lots of different sort of perspectives to be able to really address it fully. Sometimes people would just give took about doing, you know, for Netflix anxious, the coach might say, well, just do some breathing or a relaxation technique. And that can help in the moment.

00:19:19:11 - 00:19:57:22
Unknown
But then the next time you perform, you're probably going to feel the same anxiety or a few performances down the line. So for me, it's about that, that work that takes time and energy and effort to make these changes. But anybody can do that as well. Yeah, really interesting how you kind of split it up into those two avenues, you know, and I agree with you 100% in the sense that if our brain and mind is constantly creating this sort of anxious experience in the future, you know, every time we think about a moment in the future, our brain creates a kind of representation of reality.

00:19:57:22 - 00:20:28:02
Unknown
And with that comes an experience. Every time we imagine ourself feeling anxious in that moment, we neurologically train our mind and body to be anxious in that moment. And we have this self-fulfilling scenario. And but then we also have that self-fulfilling scenario. If we don't deal with the deeper layers of the onion that, creating those thoughts in the first place, we're going to keep creating those those thoughts and how how would you just sticking with the first one and then maybe we move on to the second one.

00:20:28:02 - 00:20:51:12
Unknown
How would you help direct someone's attention? You know, you talked about having such a limited bandwidth in any given moment. What are some of the techniques that you might use to work with someone? I think it goes again, if we talk about sort of being good enough, because that's something that comes up time and time again across all sort of areas of performance.

00:20:51:12 - 00:21:11:03
Unknown
I think for me, I would say to a performers working with one, well, there's two ways of doing it. For some people it's actually saying there's no such thing as good enough. It's an abstract concept where often, people hold over themselves, I need to be good enough. But actually, when you say, but what does a good enough look like for some people?

00:21:11:03 - 00:21:28:22
Unknown
Again, if you relate that to your performance, you could say, what does good enough look like for you to be able to perform today in this situation? That can really work for some people and they can say, actually, I need to be able to remember the music, I need to be able to engage. I need to have my shoulders relaxed.

00:21:28:22 - 00:21:53:10
Unknown
I need to see you thinking about what are the processes you need to focus on for some of the performance? Actually, it can be just acknowledging that I am good enough. I'm good enough right now. There is no such thing that I'm aiming for this kind of good enough that we hold over ourselves so other people, judges or coaches say, you know, sort of hold this, you need to do this well or you need to achieve this.

00:21:53:10 - 00:22:12:12
Unknown
We need to get that mat low. You need to be able to deliver this performance. And I think a lot of the time people feel like there's this level we're all aspiring to in terms about performance or in just in terms of being people that, you know, we're going to get to this level where everything's going to be okay.

00:22:12:12 - 00:22:32:02
Unknown
And if you get this gold medal, I'll be okay. If I get that job and that I'll feel okay. But life is always changing, and there isn't that place that we get to where everything is good enough. So some of the clients that that in the session are really challenging and say, hang on the set, you are good enough.

00:22:32:07 - 00:22:57:06
Unknown
You look at what you're doing, look at the person you are, look at what you're able to do as that. They look at you as a human being as well as the athlete that you are. You are good enough. And that really comes back to self-esteem as well. So for me, if I'm looking at helping people develop their self-esteem, that that taps into that kind of good enough, you are good enough as a person.

00:22:57:08 - 00:23:16:19
Unknown
That doesn't mean they become complacent and you just go and perform and think in a mediocre way that that really enables people to then be able to engage and deliver because they're not worrying. They're not that kind of nickel in the background of their mind saying, what are you doing? What people can be thinking about. You don't make a mistake.

00:23:16:20 - 00:23:50:04
Unknown
Maybe everyone's so unique, so it depends on the individual person, but people find that really hard. Often if they've been brought up with this needing to be good enough kind of fear and believe they can find it very hard to stand, then say, I am good enough right now for what I'm doing today. And that's that's what if you can sort of get up each day and say that the way you approach the day is going to be hugely different to worrying about every situation you're coming up against.

00:23:50:06 - 00:24:22:13
Unknown
And what in your experience, do you feel helps that individual crystallize that belief change? You know, I imagine there's people listening to this who kind of go, yes, I, I know I need to change this opinion. I realize I've got a self-limiting belief or I, I realize that this is holding me back, but I just don't know how to believe what I want to believe or I don't know how to increase my self-esteem.

00:24:22:13 - 00:24:49:15
Unknown
So how what in your experience have you found is that kind of difference that makes the difference that enables that switch to happen? I think it's potentially talking, you know, you don't have to work with the performance psychologist talking to friends, even if you're in sport, talking to coaches or other athletes who are around. You have been perhaps in a similar to or a performing on the stage for example.

00:24:49:15 - 00:25:23:02
Unknown
And I think for me it's again, it comes back to, yes, thinking about what what it is that's or why you've got those beliefs, but also then thinking about actually what you have to really spend some time just trying to tap into where that belief has come from. And again, that might sound complicated, but just actually stopping and reflecting, getting a pen and paper and making some notes about where that belief has come from can be really helpful.

00:25:23:04 - 00:25:43:20
Unknown
And then thinking, actually, what can I change that to? So if you've got a belief that that, for example, that you need to be able to, you know, you're worried about what people think. So say you're a singer and whenever you go on stage you're worried about getting reviews. You know, there's a reviewer coming in, you're worried about the reports.

00:25:43:20 - 00:26:03:22
Unknown
You're going to get. Well, social media, for example, which is huge, obviously, for everyone. Now you have to really think about what's behind that. How can you change that belief? And that's why I say there's no one sort of magic thing. So if you think about a review, it can be and you might say today is just another performance, it does it.

00:26:03:22 - 00:26:24:07
Unknown
The fact that there's a review and it could work, that actually you say that's brilliant because that this gives me a chance now to show what I can do that won't necessarily work for everyone. Say, for somebody else, it could be there's a reviewer in the audience for actually five minutes. There's a thousand people watching you. 999 people are here.

00:26:24:07 - 00:26:48:03
Unknown
There's just one review, and I get it, and I can take it. So I can put that into context. So it's thinking about what, what? And you will hear if I use the Tim model, I work with Professor Steve Peters and with with the tent model. Think about that emotional theme in your brain. What I'm doing that is you're trying to find something that that emotional team in your brain will buy into.

00:26:48:03 - 00:27:09:22
Unknown
So it's the emotional thing in your brain that's often saying, you know, you need to be good enough. What if you can say, what if you get slated on social media? What if people that don't like my performance, for example, then you have to think, actually, how did what and the and you try different things out. And if things don't work then it's about saying, actually that doesn't work out.

00:27:10:00 - 00:27:30:07
Unknown
What can I try next? What can I do? And you will feel it when you get the right I call them, tricky said. They're like factual statements that you say to yourself at that moment, and you can feel it when it when you get it right. And I can see it in if I'm having a session with the client, I can see if the client's not there saying, yeah, yeah, that sounds good.

00:27:30:07 - 00:27:51:14
Unknown
If you're trying a new belief and you can tell it's not, and I'll say, well, try it, see if it works. And then they come back and say, no, it didn't work. So then we try something else and you can really see that penny drop moment when when you get it right. And that will work. You know, again, that's not to say that's going to be the statement that you use at that moment in time forever.

00:27:51:20 - 00:28:20:20
Unknown
For some people, it might be an image as well, an image that comes to mind that helps bring you down. See, it gives you that perspective, changes that belief, visual sound or anything. It's this it's trying things out. And I think anybody can do that. Things like visualize action can really help as well. So visualizing yourself in that moment, but coping with it, using the statement, managing yourself in that situation and things like that can be really helpful.

00:28:20:22 - 00:28:51:04
Unknown
Yeah, it's amazing what what resonates with different people. And and sometimes it's the most creative thing the individual comes up with. As a, as a coach or support person, you might have an idea in mind. And when they own it and find something that resonates, it's, no matter how creative the, the example or the image can be, if it's if it's impactful, that's important.

00:28:51:05 - 00:29:18:02
Unknown
Yeah, definitely. Then it's about helping the individual find that. And I think again, it's always, you know, the work I do. And I think for people helping themselves, it's this notion of magic one door we've got all there's loads of tools and techniques and tech so you can give people. But at the end of the day you've got to try things out and see what works for you individually and see and again and, and what doesn't.

00:29:18:02 - 00:29:41:17
Unknown
And you can really start to explore thinking about performances, what what was the time might perform? Well? What was the build up to that? What was I focused on? Have holiday prepared things like that. So again, you can start to really help yourself by just tuning into how you're preparing when things go well or if things go wrong, just rather than getting cross frustrated.

00:29:41:17 - 00:30:08:09
Unknown
Actually just think things went well. That's okay. Let's think about why that was what I can change. How might I look at preparing differently or approaching a competition differently next time? What can I change and try out? And there's this journey with me that's evolving. As a performer. You always your performances are always changing and developing and moving, and it's this constant dynamic process.

00:30:08:09 - 00:30:47:05
Unknown
And it's for me, it's always about trying things out and seeing what works and not being afraid to take that risk to try something. And if it doesn't, that's okay. Try something else next time. Yeah, I think that's a really important point, you know, because that having that experimental approach to the solution I find really, really important to not only take away the, the, the need for it to have to work in the expectation, which adds more stress around, but also the, you know, the nature of performance psychology or mental skills coaching, where people.

00:30:47:07 - 00:31:31:02
Unknown
I'm always amazed by how much time, effort and money people put into physical advancements, technical advancements, you know, in a natural kind of expectation of a physical enhancement might be what? I've just got to get an experiment, you know, I've got to try. You know, leaping up with my left foot or leaping up with my right foot, or I go out and try it and give it a go and, and then come back and, and find that sweet spot and, and often when people try to apply some kind of mental support or, kind of mental skills to, to their activity, there, isn't that necessarily that same patience a lot of the time and the

00:31:31:02 - 00:32:15:07
Unknown
time and money we attribute to actually implementing those solutions on a, on a psychological or mental basis are often a fraction of what someone might, you know, might do otherwise. And so when we have that experimental approach that really allows us to kind of breathe life into that. Yeah. How how have you seen over the years, you know, you being one of, the first performance psychologist working with the UK sport and Olympic teams and out of so many years, how have you seen that uptake or the progression and the acceptance of people seeing the rise of the mental game being an integral part of training?

00:32:15:09 - 00:32:40:07
Unknown
Yeah, I think that's a good question. I think, as because I've been involved about 25 years now and it's changed hugely. When I think back to when I left racing, went into performance psychology or sports psychologist I was focused on then it was still very new. People didn't know what to expect, and I think it was at that point.

00:32:40:09 - 00:33:10:05
Unknown
Sports psychology has a lot of criticism, which I would agree with for being much too academic. So the top people who were sports psychologist tended to be professors based in universities. You did some applied work, but everything was very much more academically based, which isn't a bad thing. But I think, again, it was making that transition to being more applied and for people to be able to understand it, not this sort of mistake that it almost had about itself initially.

00:33:10:07 - 00:33:36:09
Unknown
But I meant when I finished my PhD, I started my own, consultancy company. In a couple of years into that, I applied for the job as, sports psychologist, UK, the UK, the UK Athletics Olympic team. And I got the role as I still remember, so pleased. It was like my dream dream role and I went into it was just from that.

00:33:36:13 - 00:34:07:17
Unknown
It was in 2007. So we had Beijing Olympics coming up following year and then 2012 and five years time. So there was a huge amount of money being plowed into bringing all the sports science support teams into working in these big athletics centers. So the coaches had been used to doing their own thing with their teams, and suddenly they had to come into these big centers and use all the support staff team, which sounds brilliant, but there was a lot of resistance from that.

00:34:07:17 - 00:34:35:16
Unknown
Naturally, the athletes and coaches, because it's just something very new and different. And I can imagine I can still remember going into the stadium on the first day beaming away, thinking, this is everyone's going to come out and think I'm amazing and want to work with me. And about three coaches came over to see me and said, don't take this personally, but I don't want you even speaking to my athletes, let alone thinking you're going to be able to start working with them.

00:34:35:18 - 00:35:01:17
Unknown
Hey, that the first year I spent by the side of the chat, chatting to the coaches to get them on board and to get them understand that I wasn't this scary person that was going to start to control their athletes and then work in. The athletes are much more receptive. It was interesting. It was the the coaches and a lot of the other people within the sport that were more resistant to the the.

00:35:01:19 - 00:35:26:22
Unknown
But I think now I think you'd be very surprised. Me, any Olympic or professional sportsperson in the UK that isn't working with the sports psychologist at some level. And also I love going to the theater and there's a play that came out recently at the National Theater last year, and that was about the England football team. It was called Dear England, about Gareth Southgate and his time with the England team.

00:35:26:22 - 00:35:53:09
Unknown
But it was Pippa Grange, the sports psychologist, had a key role in this play. So this was in the theater talking about the England football team. And it was interesting that the sports psychologist had a key role in the play as well. So I think you could see just quite how far it's come now. So. You everybody will feel anxious about different situations.

00:35:53:11 - 00:36:37:12
Unknown
This fact is obvious, yet most people tend to ignore or deny this anxiety until it develops into something very distractive overwhelming, or even a psychological issue. Psychological studies even show that up to 35% of elite athletes suffer from a mental health crisis. For example, Doctor Margot Peterkin from the Department of Athletic Medicine, the University Health Services Princeton University reported that 33% of injured athletes reported high levels of depressive symptoms and 27% of non injured athletes still reported issues with depression.

00:36:37:14 - 00:37:27:07
Unknown
Yet despite this prevalence, even those performing at the pointy end who rely on their mental ability for their career often don't prioritize their mental health or in a game and don't see it as important as their physical health or physical progression in the general population. The Australian Institute of Health and Welfare state that 43% of the population have experienced a mental illness in the past, and 22% of the population is experiencing it in the last 12 months, with anxiety disorders affecting 31.9% of adolescents between 13 and 18 years old and children of the age of five reporting problems with anxiety.

00:37:27:09 - 00:38:04:08
Unknown
This means that someone you know and potentially someone you love is likely struggling with anxiety and their mental health. Our inability to effectively manage our mind stares us in plain sight, yet it is continually overlooked, underestimated or denied and ignored. It's often called a silent disease because many people struggle alone and do not ask for help. In fact, the World Health Organization estimates that close to two thirds of mental illnesses go untreated.

00:38:04:10 - 00:38:42:22
Unknown
Many cases even go undiagnosed. Flow unleashed here. It fascinates me that the culture around the Or the fear of having psychological support. You know, I still work with athletes who want the relationship to be anonymous because they're worried about being reprimanded by their coach, because their coach might have a command and control, leadership style, where, you know, they want everything to either be done in-house or they or they, they want to be the one sort of having the power to make any change.

00:38:42:22 - 00:39:20:10
Unknown
And, and the focus necessarily isn't on the individual's optimal human functioning, but rather than the, you know, the coach's ability to command and control. And, you know, I also have a look in just in relationships, you know, something that means so important to us, like a loving relationship with our partner. Many people are afraid of seeking external help, you know, for that relationship or seeing a psychologist to to help with something that's so important to us in the fear of of where that will go.

00:39:20:12 - 00:39:47:15
Unknown
Have you seen over the years that fear disappear or break down? And if so, what do you think's really helpful? Yeah, yeah, I think it has. I think a lot of that has been just a performance psychologist thing, more in the made up psychologist across all aspects in the space, things like social media where people are posting all the time or uploading videos, what performance psychology is about.

00:39:47:15 - 00:40:07:15
Unknown
So, and also I think for me there's two things. One, the one thing is that very much mental health has become huge now that there's a huge focus on mental health and mental wellbeing, which is brilliant. But I would say, you know, in my work, I'm not a clinical psychologist. My work is very much focused on performance.

00:40:07:17 - 00:40:39:11
Unknown
So I can help people with anxiety to a certain level or depression to a certain level. But I'm not a clinical psychologist, and I think that's the difference. In the past, people tended to think a a sports psychologist, you know, you have to have a problem or a mental illness to go and see a performance psychologist. Whereas I think what we've got much better at helping people see is actually we're there to help you perform your best to get that extra 5% that you want to get with, to be able to tap into that peak performance.

00:40:39:11 - 00:41:06:10
Unknown
Not because if you're suffering from depression or anxiety, there's obviously there's a huge need for psychologists to work in that area as well. But I think what I try and in my work is very much focus on, and that was what got me through with the, you know, initiative. Some of the coaches at UK Athletics and some of the other Olympic sports I've worked in was actually saying, people don't need to have a problem or a child or a mental health issue to come and see me.

00:41:06:12 - 00:41:38:10
Unknown
I can work within your athlete to help them tap into that 10% that they're struggling to find, or we can help them look at how they're approaching their training or how they're approaching their competitions. And I think that's where you can start to break things that there's not something scary about. What I'm doing. It's about working together. And I haven't necessarily got all the answers, but we can work together and try and see the areas you want to improve on in the you want to work on and think, how can we actually work on that together?

00:41:38:12 - 00:41:58:01
Unknown
And I think being quite honest, I always say to coaches and athletes, you know, I haven't got all the answers. I bring my sort of two by May of performance psychology skills. But you're the expert athlete, you're the expert at coaching, and we work together to try and help move things forwards and make the changes you want to make.

00:41:58:01 - 00:42:21:15
Unknown
But I'm not. I haven't got all the answers in my in the intent. And again, it's I come with my toolbox and we work together to move things forward. I would say to any performer I'm working, it's not I don't help, I can advice, I can, you know, I can support, I can be a sanding block. But at the end of the day, that performer has to make those changes themselves.

00:42:21:17 - 00:42:44:23
Unknown
Well, things will only change for a short term. They have to want to make the changes. And I've sometimes worked in a sport or I remember I worked in, for an investment bank for a few years as well, and often I get people sent to see me who didn't. Yeah, and didn't want to come and see me, but their manager said, go and see Anna and have a session.

00:42:45:01 - 00:43:07:06
Unknown
And, and I would just be very clear with everybody and we'd have a session. I'd explain a bit about what what I could do to help and look at the areas they perhaps were thinking, wanting to make changes in. But I would do is say at the end of the session, you have to go and think about if this is something you want to do and you have to come back to me and say, actually, yes, this is something I want to do.

00:43:07:07 - 00:43:27:21
Unknown
Because if you're coming, because your manager just told you or you have to be here, it's it's going to be hard to make those changes. And I think when I first started out just as a performance psychologist, I wouldn't have had the confidence to do that. I'd have been desperate to get when the person over it to work with me and make those changes.

00:43:27:21 - 00:43:55:22
Unknown
But now I can take that step back and say, actually, do you need to want to make the changes yourself? And sometimes you have to, but somebody is paying you to work with somebody and you have to do that. And again, that's that's a different scenario. But it's and yeah, and but usually people are resistant. Again there's something there that they're afraid of or worried about or concerned about that you can or they're fine and they don't need the support.

00:43:56:00 - 00:44:25:17
Unknown
Yeah. I'm always amazed at how sometimes I might be sitting across a dinner table or a it could be in a casual setting, not a professional setting. And they come across the fact that, you know, I work in this mental space and they suddenly go, oh, you're not reading my mind. I see this as this sort of fear and expectation that if you talk to someone in the capacity that you'll open a can of worms and you won't be able to put the can back in its place.

00:44:25:17 - 00:44:47:22
Unknown
And, and I think it's so important, the words you said of, you know, often the intention really with the professional is to help people find their own answers rather than necessarily give them answers, because, you know, a it's it's more empowering that way, more sustainable in terms of the solution. But, you know, often we we do have to find our own answers.

00:44:48:00 - 00:45:08:15
Unknown
I often find if you're working through something with the client, writing things that. So I often work with the white board. So if I'm working with all my client sessions, I generally have a, a white well, they're at or flipped out to me, write notes as we're going through the session. And that can be really again, we're talking about changing beliefs and things like that.

00:45:08:15 - 00:45:31:21
Unknown
So again, I'll often put if some discuss a belief they want to change, I just put it on the white boards and we'll just brainstorm ideas around that. And seeing it written down there again is a get. And that's, that's the I can often think, well, I know what I would how I would change this play for I can see what they need to do, but you've got to take that step back and let them find that.

00:45:31:21 - 00:45:53:22
Unknown
And it can sometimes it can take several sessions. So them just processing and brainstorming and thinking. But it's it's again it's allowing that client that time to do that themselves. And you can guide them and know will often ask questions where are the simpler you do this role. But you know the answer. But you want them to think about the process.

00:45:53:22 - 00:46:24:16
Unknown
So you need want them to think challenge themselves. Because when when people actually voice their emotions, you know, when we talk about how we're feeling or we talk about anxieties or worries, we're actually processing that. So if I think about the Tim model again, with that, you're using your logical, rational brain. You're allowing the emotion. You're talking about the emotions and the rational, logical thinking brain can listen into how you were feeling.

00:46:24:16 - 00:46:46:06
Unknown
So again, I think for me that process is and that's something anyone can do. It's, you know, you can brainstorm that yourself and think through actually what how was I feeling at that moment? Why was I feeling anxious and how would I like to feel? What could I say to myself at that moment to to change that.

00:46:46:08 - 00:47:11:16
Unknown
Yeah. And as a professional so important to give, give that space and time for individuals to have that processing. Because if we kind of tried to jump to the solution too quickly, that processing doesn't happen. And then we don't get that, that integrated change that, that, that inhibits them finding themselves in the same position a little bit later.

00:47:11:18 - 00:47:34:09
Unknown
Do you want to help others unleash their performance? Do you want an internationally recognized accreditation to stand out amongst the crowd, or do you want the play? But I use every day and helping professionals to be their best. Join us and my training organization, the Flow Center. We are on a mission to train a fellowship of expert practitioners to work with us and help make the world a better place.

00:47:34:11 - 00:48:03:15
Unknown
Whether you want to join the Flight Center team as a flight coach or continue your professional leadership development, we'll integrate these valuable skills into your organization and team. Go to Flow center.org today. You mentioned the chimp model quite a few times and it's quite a famous model, by Steve Peters and colleagues where, you know, we have this this in a chimp that distracts us from what we want to do.

00:48:03:15 - 00:48:40:18
Unknown
And what have you learn from work? You know, you were the managing director there for several years. What have you learned during your time working predominantly with that model and what are the main benefits someone could take away from adopting that model? Yeah, I think when I first met Steve, probably pre, but in around 2007 he was doing a presentation to the all the English Institute, a sport sports psychologists in the build up to Beijing I think.

00:48:40:18 - 00:49:03:20
Unknown
And he was talking about the chimp model back then and just started really developing it. And I suppose what jumped out at me was, was initially and then with working with him after that was just having a model, which is like a tangible way of looking at how your brain works. So with the chimp model, Steve talks about we have three teams in the brain.

00:49:03:20 - 00:49:28:07
Unknown
So you have, an emotional thinking team which is developed even before we're born. And that's an automated system. So it's not within our direct control, but that's where it has things like the fight flight freeze. It's there to keep us safe and keep us alive, but it's very reactive. So the system and that's what Steve calls you're in a chimp.

00:49:28:07 - 00:49:54:00
Unknown
So it's this emotional thinking that sort of uses emotion to function. It doesn't is true. So logic and it's very quick to respond. So if you know, if a lion burst into the room next to me here, that Tim, that emotional thinking team in my brain would either fight the lion, hide under the table, or run out the door, they're going to fight flight freeze mode, and we need that.

00:49:54:00 - 00:50:22:08
Unknown
We need that to to be able to the other team, which is the what's it called? The human, which is the rational, logical thinking team. This doesn't really start to develop till we're probably about 2 or 3 years old. And so when children are first born, they're using this emotional thinking system most of the time. And that's where they are very often for it you can see that they're very reactive, responsive, often aren't able to put things into perspective or context.

00:50:22:10 - 00:50:42:23
Unknown
And this other team, the human team that Steve defines is the human. This is your rational, logical thinking team and it develops, ranted Tracy. Often we'll see with children, they'll suddenly start to say things like I can't eat chocolate for dinner. Why? Why does the sun, why does the sun go down at night and they're starting to use this?

00:50:42:23 - 00:51:13:04
Unknown
This rational, logical thinking team is starting to develop. And it's where we have things like executive functioning, where you can put things into perspective, into context, and also our morals and values. So that's the real use that that human, that rational logical thinking team is the real. Yeah. So when I, when I said before about if somebody comes in see me about feeling anxious, for example, and I say, well, actually, how do you want to be as a performer?

00:51:13:06 - 00:51:34:13
Unknown
What I'm doing is giving them the space to shift the blood flow to that rational, logical thinking team, the human to actually think about how do you want to be if you're away from an emotive situation, you can take that time to use that system to say that's, I want to be professional. I want to be focused, I want being engaged.

00:51:34:13 - 00:51:58:21
Unknown
I want to be motivated. I want to be relaxed. Whatever it is you can say maybe with with. And then the third system is what we call the computer. And that's where you store your automated beliefs, where you have automated programs. So if you're performing in peak performance, you're using a program that's stored in that, that that third team, the computer.

00:51:58:23 - 00:52:31:04
Unknown
And I think sometimes that model get criticized for being too. You can't how does the flow move around? Because that's what you're talking blood shifting the blood flow between these three teams in your mind. But actually it's about they're very integrated and it's about understanding when you might need to use that emotion or thinking team, and when you might need to use the human team, and when you need to be able to quieten your team to allow the blood flow to be in the computer.

00:52:31:04 - 00:53:01:06
Unknown
If you're so performing and you want to be programing your computer. So if you think that learning to drive, for example, you're using that human team for that. So again, you're having to consciously process learning a new skill or learning to drive for example. And that's slow and clunky. It's not a fast system. And then when you add the more proficient you guess at driving, that then becomes a sort of automated program that would be stored in your computer.

00:53:01:06 - 00:53:33:18
Unknown
And then you can drive a car and listen to the radio or talk to somebody. And again, you have that. There's an autopilot running and then your system release in your computer. So that's when I'm helping an athlete or client change. But like if again we have to I say reprogram that computer team in your mind. So you've got to change your what you're doing is actively removing that belief that you had and replacing it with a more helpful one, as we talked about that earlier as well.

00:53:33:20 - 00:53:57:01
Unknown
How does the model overlap with the science around your cognition? Yeah, I think I've always tended with the model to use it. And and the more I think it can because you can you think about two systems less reactive emotional system that's not within your your direct control as well. And I think that was a key thing with a model that was different.

00:53:57:02 - 00:54:18:11
Unknown
That state brought this idea that there's a system, this emotional system in your brain that you don't have direct control over. And that's what really jumps out at a lot of people that are needed or come across the model for the first time, is recognizing that in any situation, the blood flow will go, first of all, to this.

00:54:18:11 - 00:54:41:11
Unknown
If you were in a unusual situation, the blood flow automatically goes to that emotional thinking system. First, you don't have direct control over, and that's why people often get frustrated when they say, you know, I want to lose weight, and I've planned my diet, and then you go to a restaurant and you say, right, I'm going to the Pizza Express or any pizza shop, and I'm going to order the salads.

00:54:41:11 - 00:55:08:00
Unknown
And the waiter comes over and you are doing extra pizza with added toppings. And again, that's because you get the human team has often thought that I'm going to be on a diet, and this is I'm going to have the salad. But in the heat of the moment, the blood flow goes to that emotional thinking system. And if you haven't primed that ready to react differently, you're probably going to react in the same way and order the pizza.

00:55:08:02 - 00:55:26:06
Unknown
And that that for some people, it's a huge relief to realize that. Why have I struggled with this for years? Why haven't I just been able to go and order that salad? And the recognizing that actually there's a system in your brain that's not within your direct control, but you can learn to understand and you can learn to manage.

00:55:26:08 - 00:56:07:01
Unknown
It can be a huge relief for a lot of people. And at the same with performance, sometimes performers saying, you know, don't understand why I worry about making a mistake. I don't understand why I always get nervous or I don't understand why beat myself up if I've had a bad performance afterwards? Because it's not helpful, but I can't stop myself doing it and recognize that again, there's this system that you have to actively learn to understand and manage and then be able to reprogram your mind is simply, again, as we talked about before, can naturally and naturally quite good at doing that and perhaps haven't struggled with that.

00:56:07:03 - 00:56:40:03
Unknown
And other people have struggled all their lives. And, you know, you can see the relief in some people's space and just understanding and recognizing that and then being able to to work with this. And I think for me, the model brings that you're not just talking about something abstract. It doesn't resonate with anyone by any stretch. But for some people that actually, rather than just about a thought of feeling, thinking, I've got these three teams I need to understand and learn about my unit team, what's my template?

00:56:40:03 - 00:57:07:12
Unknown
What's my human like, what's in my computer that can give people a really solid construct to work with and make it much more money? We talked about before, you know, being things, feeling scary or being afraid of, you know, working with a sports psychologist or something like that. But I think for some people, the model brings up sort of reassurance of something tangible and concrete, but it is just a model and it's not.

00:57:07:12 - 00:57:28:01
Unknown
There's not much state. Done some research recently to support it. So I think it's it's very much a part of my toolbox rather than when I worked with Steve, we had to sort of use the model in all our work, and I do, but it is still very much a part of my toolbox, but I don't I yeah, I dip in and that's that will now.

00:57:28:01 - 00:57:52:05
Unknown
And if it resonates with people then I think it and I certainly use it myself. It was that was one thing that really drew me to the model. It resonated with me as with understanding my mind, I think. And yeah, and I will say, yeah, being able to I use my so every morning I did the mental warm up for the ten use aspects from the the chimp model.

00:57:52:05 - 00:58:25:02
Unknown
Definitely with that and think back again with my when you can really bring that chimp, that emotional team to life. And I think for some people, again, thinking of it as a temporary part of them, that's that you can get to know and get to work with again, rather than being overwhelmed by anxiety or fears or concerns, thinking naturally, this is something inside my mind that I can get to know and work with, and that actually it's not something that's overwhelming or something to be scared of.

00:58:25:02 - 00:58:47:08
Unknown
It's something that you can bring on board. And what we're so I think people often to, you know, boxing a champion or controlling a chimp or getting rid of your chimp, but it's not. It's about understanding it and getting it to work with you. Making friends with your team. We need that chimp system in it. But it's just understanding it and working with it.

00:58:47:10 - 00:59:21:13
Unknown
Yeah I can certainly see how the model allows self-compassion you know, and allows us to kind of diffuse from a thinking and maybe not place so much identity on our thinking and, and kind of reactionary behaviors and, not beat ourselves up and how, how would the model explain peak performance or flow? I'd say, and, in your computer that a program in, you know, compared to, say, the chimp being quiet, and happy.

00:59:21:18 - 00:59:43:23
Unknown
So it's not niggling away or distracting you, but then it's very much about using that program and, you know, compared to so when your you're tapping into what you need to focus on to be able to perform at your best, so you wouldn't want the human involved, that would make you very conscious, that would take you back to a very conscious performance state.

00:59:44:01 - 01:00:19:03
Unknown
You. Sometimes you want your chimp involved a little bit. So some some performers I work with, particularly on stage or, or in some sports as well, because your team has this sort of worries about what other people think often, but equally wants to show off, wants to be the best, wants to demonstrate superiority for some people. So for some performers, they might use that on stage so that they actually draw an attempt to come out and help them to be that confident person, that they want to be on stage.

01:00:19:03 - 01:00:41:22
Unknown
So it's a chance for the chimp to show off and to, to to embrace that. But again, that's the chimp coming. You're working with the chimp to come into the performance, but the main part of the performance would be using a program in your computer. But I think it's not. It's not so much. Although we're talking about the three teams, it's more about thinking it's not.

01:00:41:22 - 01:01:13:21
Unknown
This one team might be more involved in certain aspects of performance, but essentially it's about you always think about how all three might might contribute. Or as I said, with the human, not so much with peak performance, because that would make it my conscious. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. And most of my understanding of neuroscience and, neuro cognition would be in terms of flow and optimal performance would be them working in synchronicity.

01:01:13:21 - 01:01:43:11
Unknown
You know, that thinking brain or prefrontal cortex holds the focus. You know, the goal at front and center to to direct our attention and, and then that see there's trust there between all three entities to allow that super computer to actualize the training and actualize our ability. And then that chimp is well trained to use its, its sort of instincts and intuition to sort of play with novelty in the moment, in the fastest possible manner.

01:01:43:13 - 01:02:15:21
Unknown
But and there's certainly like a, a cohesion between all of them. And I guess dual cognition theories would combine the, chimp and the supercomputer into one sort of operating system, whereas it's sort of split up there. Yeah, fascinating. Having worked so deeply in a variety of domains from dance, sport, business and so forth, how transferable do you feel skills, mental skills learned in one area is applicable to another area of someone's life?

01:02:16:02 - 01:02:41:18
Unknown
Yeah, I think 100% really, because any skills that you're learning, I think is not I don't think of them as being learned and just around your performance, they might be learning it. See you doing visualization as part of your mental warm up for a performance. You might actually then start to do visualization. If you're doing presentation at work or in the morning thinking about the day ahead.

01:02:41:22 - 01:03:12:19
Unknown
So I think the skills are very much I might how some need to apply them to elite performance or performance, but they they do impact across all areas of our life. And I think again, where I am now as a performance psychologist, I very much work with the whole person. So any work I do with clients is about getting to know them as a person, understanding them as a person, not just performance and issues around performance.

01:03:12:19 - 01:03:34:02
Unknown
And again, I think that's where the model can really help, because if I'm using that model with the client, then the first couple of sessions were exploring, understanding, getting to know the human, the chimp and what's in their computers. And again, that's not just related to sport, that's them as a person as well as in terms of their sporting context.

01:03:34:06 - 01:03:59:10
Unknown
I might have some clients that come see me and just have a couple of sessions very specifically focused towards a skill they want to change or improve or very sports related. But the majority of clients I work with period of time will be very much about working with them as a person, not just specific to sports and getting them to understand that themselves as a person.

01:03:59:10 - 01:04:32:19
Unknown
I think that makes a huge difference. A lot of performers often neglect to think about them. You know, they all have the athlete or the musician know the actor or the comedian. They're not. For me, it's very much about, first of all, your person, the human being. And then it's about or say you're a performer. Among clients, I work very much in the sort of well known and, you know, in social media and trying to negotiate that world of social media and reviews and being talked about a lot.

01:04:32:21 - 01:05:00:13
Unknown
That's a key stage resource to to take that time with them, to say, first of all, you're a person and a worthwhile person and then your performance, you have to be able to differentiate between the two. And if you can say if you can understand what's important, here's a person and what are your values and qualities as a person, then it doesn't matter what people say about you on social media, that's about your performance.

01:05:00:13 - 01:05:24:00
Unknown
That's something that you need to manage and you need to address, obviously. But actually you can still stand up each morning and say, you know, I'm I'm value myself for these reasons. And I'm, I appreciate this is me as a person and then as a performer that's that's separate and that if you can do that, then that means you can really maintain your self esteem.

01:05:24:00 - 01:05:59:11
Unknown
If your self esteem screws up in how many likes getting on social media or refusing, or a number of ticket sales or gold medals at the Olympics, then your self-esteem is going to constantly fluctuate depending on what other people say. I think that's a really important point. You hear more and more in the media of sort of coaches, you know, especially in sort of football, because it gets so much sort of airtime and on media and then looking to recruit and and pick new players who are great people, not just great performers.

01:05:59:13 - 01:06:30:15
Unknown
And there's this sort of interconnected growth with the more we develop as a human being, the better able we are to have a stronger, self-contained construct, stronger self-esteem, stronger self-worth. We're able to, you know, allow self-efficacy to become more complete, quicker, and it adds to our overall performance. Yeah. There's also many examples of narcissists and egomaniacs. And, it's still performing at a very, very high level.

01:06:30:15 - 01:06:57:22
Unknown
And so there's often a I guess, a hesitation or caution there of what do I really need to develop myself as a human being, like, I just want to do well at this, this sport or this present nation or, you know, why do I have to work on myself? I just want to perform better and sort of understanding how those two there is this sort of symbiotic relationship I think is really important to people's journey of embracing that, that mental game.

01:06:58:01 - 01:07:23:18
Unknown
Yeah, definitely. And I think again, it's, it's sometimes we aren't ready initially to understand that. So I've got some clients that I've worked with for several years. And again sometimes you've done things in the beginning around that and they're just not ready to take that on board yet. And you have to wait till they are ready to really start to, to understand that and to to work on that.

01:07:23:20 - 01:08:01:02
Unknown
And some people still, you know, they need a the all the time. It doesn't be they post something and get lots of negative comments or feedback or abuse on social media. And you still initially fell down about that. And then you have to work through that and then reconnect with what is important. I also want people to say that you've got to always have a key group of people close to you that you trust, and that might be your coach, it might be your parents, it might be a partner, sort of a team of about 5 to 10 people maximum that a room that you trust.

01:08:01:04 - 01:08:38:06
Unknown
So maybe it might be one person even. And any time you're in a situation like that where things have gone wrong, you've got a lover, you've got challenging things to deal with, or you've just had a performance or so. If been at the Olympics, you always go back to there your first sort of team to check in with your feedback, to the trusted people that no matter what's happened, you get feedback from them, and then you can let the rest of the social media and everybody else go, because you've got confidence in your team of people that are close to you, that hold you back no matter what.

01:08:38:07 - 01:09:02:19
Unknown
But they need to be able to challenge you. And, you know, it's not that they just say you're wonderful all the time. They can they need to be able to give you constructive feedback, but they're the team you can rely on. And if people can really buy into that, they can let go. The pressures on social media and the press and everything else, but they have to actively work on that, usually all the time, to remember that.

01:09:02:21 - 01:09:30:11
Unknown
I've always fascinated with the question because I get asked a lot of time, you know, every now and again around, often there's a suggestion, whole premise that we need to kind of de layer and strip away, where you go, because often that's triggered to comparison and pitting us as inferior or superior and triggering that thinking brain to sort of overthink situations, become self-conscious and so forth.

01:09:30:13 - 01:10:07:01
Unknown
Yeah. There's examples such as Michael Jordan or Muhammad Ali or Cristina Ronaldo, where one might associate, you know, without knowing them personally, one might associate that there is quite a strong ego there, you know, and they they hold the limelight for performance in, in, in their domains. But what's your thoughts on the need to kind of work with our ego and, and deliver it to, to increase our development, increase our personal performance and those examples who seem to be doing the contrary to that.

01:10:07:03 - 01:10:40:18
Unknown
For me, it's about understanding again, the individual with that, some people can use their ego to push themselves, to see, to excel, and for other people, that's not helpful at all. And I think, again, going back to the Tim model, Steve talks about that, that chimp team having, innate drives within this one being the ego drive and that need to us, we naturally compare ourselves to others and often people again, some people's chimps have a very strong ego drive.

01:10:40:18 - 01:11:15:19
Unknown
Some people don't. And so for some people, if their chimp has a high ego drive, there was wanting to show off, there was wanting to demonstrate superiority. And for me, it's that I'm not saying that's good or bad, but it's that's how you, that's how your team likes to be. So how do you use that constructively? So for some people, I've worked with coaches in Olympic sports before where you've had two coaches who have these chimps have very high ego drives, and there's a lot of territory battling going on or wanting to be the more dominant.

01:11:15:19 - 01:11:47:14
Unknown
So the chimp in that situation climbed ego. And often it's about understanding that in certain situations, one person's to be more dominant and then set up another situations the other person isn't. If you're someone has to take a back step, then I would always say think about. So if you've got quite high ego tribe that you're working with for somebody who also has that, but you need to manage that and not be the the one with the high end.

01:11:47:14 - 01:12:13:21
Unknown
You can drive that mountain. But then again, think about other situations where you can use that. So playing the sport aggressively or competitively can be a really good way of using that need to demonstrate ego drive, but in a constructive way. So if at work you're having to manage that new can't be using that, then it's it's about thinking how do you manage that in other situations?

01:12:13:21 - 01:12:41:17
Unknown
In other ways? Again, I think is understanding the individual, but also thinking about working with what you've got at it, changing the change in. But if you have a high ego drive, how to use that constructively and when might you need to to manage that? What has helped you stay interested in your work and not burn out? Like many workers and the rest of the planet seem to be doing lots of these days, I think.

01:12:41:19 - 01:13:03:16
Unknown
So it's been I well, I personally, I love what I do, so I think, you know, I've, I got a real passion for the work that I do. And I think when I first started out, I was probably more driven and ambitious and wanted to work with all the top teams and top performers and to go to the Olympics and to be part of everything that is important.

01:13:03:16 - 01:13:24:16
Unknown
But I think what I've learned to make the years as well is it's actually about that connection with individuals. And, you know, each day I get up and if I've got one on one sessions, no, two, one on one sessions, ever the same. Because you know that each client comes with their unique situation or their unique challenges.

01:13:24:18 - 01:13:48:01
Unknown
I've got some clients I've worked with said for many, many years and even work with them there. So each time I have a session with them, there's something new we're working on, something different, something that's changed and the same with any sort of organization. I love the buzz of going into a new organization, or working with a new client and getting to know them, and thinking, well, how can I help here?

01:13:48:01 - 01:14:18:07
Unknown
And what can what what can we do together? And I think that's what I find hugely rewarding, but also exciting. And I think we're on this journey where life changing all the time. And, you know, I've worked in sports, I've worked across a lot of different domains. So that's something that has kept things fresh and interesting for me, is often taking on a client in the domain or areas that I haven't worked in before, and having to really think, how can I approach this?

01:14:18:07 - 01:14:48:15
Unknown
How can I understand this new sport? So this performance, this new dancer, musician, anything that, that, that, that it is, I think for me, that's that's it. And also just yeah, knowing that everything's always going to be coming back to that approaching things with what's the new research coming out. And I think that the world that we work in the so is so dynamic and changing, and there's always new ideas and new tools to learn or new techniques.

01:14:48:16 - 01:15:22:05
Unknown
I've always worked with lots of like working with Steve for seven years. I've had lots of different things that I've often drawn on or worked on and then incorporated into my work, so it's kept it fresh and exciting. I think at the end of the day, it's the thing that's the most rewarding is just working with people I love, people I love being able to get to pitch to and work with different people each day and see what the day brings and how I can, yeah, help or manage or support or learn myself as well.

01:15:22:05 - 01:15:42:03
Unknown
I think it's that learning that's key as well. Always learning and thinking about new ways of approaching things. Yeah, when we have the love of learning, every day is, interesting and fun.

01:15:42:05 - 01:16:06:16
Unknown
Oh, and thank you so much for your time. Yeah. And coming to the end, we ask every guest two questions. One, a film or a book that you feel has, has impacted you and you'd like to pass on to others. And then a question that, you want to put me in the hotseat with. I'd say actually, probably with the book or film, it would be steep, says Chimp Model.

01:16:06:16 - 01:16:30:10
Unknown
Because I think for me that's the original intent of what we talked about today. But I think for me that was something that really changed my thinking and my way of working, and I think gave me sort of more compassion for myself as a person as well. So yes, I'd say two pieces book. It's time to flip the mic.

01:16:30:12 - 01:17:00:15
Unknown
We started the podcast with you telling me, asking me about peak performance and how I would define it, or what does peak performance mean to me. So I suppose I ask you the same question around with your work with flow, how would you define peak performance? Good question. And you know, I think there's a lot of ambiguity when it comes to performance, optimal functioning, flow, you know, and outcome results.

01:17:00:16 - 01:17:44:15
Unknown
There's objective performance, subjective performance. But for me, I'd sort of, you know, I would define that, that space where we, actualized best. Right. Which comes through that state of flow. And someone might say, that that's a peak performance is where there's complete trust within the individual and there's this fluidity to our performance. You know, I mean, flows to the technically in its most parsimonious form, described as an intrinsically rewarding state of absorption, in which US high sense of control feels more effortless than normal.

01:17:44:15 - 01:18:14:09
Unknown
And, I feel that, you know, there are these gritted times that we push on and when we perform really, really well, but it's sort of almost a bit forced and engineered and that that might be someone else's peak performance or a high performance and we might even win, most, epic match during that state. But then there's these moments where everything clicks into place and there's just this inner harmony, and it just feels easier.

01:18:14:09 - 01:18:43:22
Unknown
It feels almost like the words were destined to come out of my mouth, or that shot was destined to hit itself. And whilst it's an effortful act, there's an ease and, smoothness to what's happening. And for me, that that's that moment of, of flow and, and an optimal state of functioning. And I find that when we focus on that, then a lot of the distractions and conflicts that ordinarily cloud our mind tend to disappear.

01:18:44:03 - 01:19:06:09
Unknown
We focus all on the process of what we're doing, what we can control. And, you know, so, I'm very much aligned with what you need laid out at the beginning in terms of really focusing on that person for the optimal state of functioning, rather than these sort of performance KPIs or benchmarks or results or outcomes that ordinarily we, you know, we might focus on.

01:19:06:11 - 01:19:17:07
Unknown
Yeah. Brilliant. Thank you. Excellent. Well, thank you very much for your time. Really good to talk to you. Thanks, Cameron. Absolute pleasure.

01:19:17:09 - 01:19:54:20
Unknown
Sometimes it takes a leap of faith to seek out psychological support, the age old connotations. But there must be something wrong with us to seek out help often linger in the archaic halls of institutions, teams and even our own consciousness. What I found refreshing about and his approach was, despite her years of experience and expertise, she still has the patience to individualize each situation, prioritize connection, and see the uniqueness of each person, rather than immediately turn to the suite of tried and tested solutions.

01:19:54:22 - 01:20:37:02
Unknown
She didn't buy into the trap. That one solution is right for everyone. Practical models are there to be practically related to or not. If it helps, it helps. If it doesn't, it doesn't. Ultimately, are stressors. Nervous reactions and turbulent preparations are subjective experience built upon our unique lens and the representation we hold of the world. Our upbringing, culture of origin, family dynamics, experience, school role models, significant moments, and sum of experiences along the way all go towards building a unique tapestry by which we make sense of the world.

01:20:37:04 - 01:21:07:03
Unknown
And it is by deeply understanding these deeper tapestries that any professional can best serve the person they're working with. Taking the time to ask that extra question, listen for a further five minutes. Experiment with models to see what resonates for the individual. Can all build towards a successful relationship between the coach and the coaching. Deepening the trust between the two.

01:21:07:05 - 01:21:36:20
Unknown
Researchers report that regardless of the therapy or coaching profession, the success of all these relationships depend most significantly on the strength of the relationship. The stronger the trust, the stronger the relationship, and the better the results. So if you are seeking help to better your situation, or perhaps want to go from good to great. Apply the same patience and experimental approach you would to your physical training.

01:21:36:22 - 01:22:12:12
Unknown
Adopt a get fit mindset approach as you would a get fit physical approach. Try a few people out and see which professional resonates with you. See which one you can build a trusting relationship with or if you are a professional. Take the time to build the relationship with the client and meet the person where they're at. If you would like to find out more about Doctor Anna Waters, please see the show notes.

01:22:12:14 - 01:22:43:12
Unknown
Thank you for listening to Flo Unleashed. If you enjoyed listening, please subscribe to get notified when our next episode drops. The more people that subscribe. The better I can make the show for you equally. Please leave a review. Your review will go a long way to helping others find this spot. Until the next time. Thank you for listening to Flo Unleashed.