Cornelia Lucey

Cameron: [00:00:00] When you find yourself feeling like, 'I just don't have enough time'. 'I just need to get stuff done'. 'We just need to push on'. Do you stop to understand the effect this has on your self-leadership and how you're influencing others? Well stay tuned as we unpack how the field of positive psychology has affected leadership in the last decade, and why you don't need to be a superhero to be a positive leader.
Welcome to Flow Unleashed. I'm Cameron Norsworthy and this is your podcast for human performance.
There are literally thousands of books on leadership often put together by successful leaders who believe, rightly or wrongly, that they have cracked the code due to the success that've [00:01:00] seen aspire. What does the field of positive psychology say about leadership? What are the lessons that we can garner?
From evidence-based practices in this area, how should we lead others through the lessons of the latest research in this field? One person that has taken a deep dive into this area is Cornelia Lucy, inspired by a time as a former senior executive, Cornelia became fascinated by the decisions leaders make and why.
Cornelia is now an award-winning chartered leadership psychologist with over 15 years of experience coaching and consulting in the industry and has published widely on wellbeing, resilience, and positive leadership. Flo Unleashed. Unleashed. Welcome to the show, Cornelia.
Cornelia: Thank you for having me, Cameron.
I'm looking forward to this.
Cameron: Yeah. It looks like you're in a nice speech hut where you're at [00:02:00] at the moment. Is that the case?
Cornelia: Not quite, no, this is our garden office. So built kind of pandemic times and just consciousness of children in the house and creating a little outhouse for us to escape to to work.
So yeah, this is our little outhouse, but it remains unpainted interiorly. So it looks a bit like a ski Shelly as well. I get, or a sauna. I get asked about sauna as well. Sauna, yeah.
Cameron: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Your private sauna. Yeah.
Cornelia: Yeah. Not nice as your little fishies in the background. I like that.
Cameron: Yeah. It's important to have a good place to work, especially when we're talking about positive leadership.
It's important. Yes. We self-lead in the right way.
Cornelia: Yeah, yeah. To right. Yeah.
Cameron: So what got you into positive leadership?
Cornelia: What got me into positive leadership? So I know obviously you and I have spoken a little bit about this, Cameron, but many things have got me into this, but I always. Go back to the beginnings and thinking [00:03:00] about my family unit and how I was raised and where I came from, and I suppose that's the start of the story.
So I come from an absolutely huge Irish family and I have 37 first cousins just on my mom's side of the family alone, and my dad's family is slightly smaller. Uh, but I was always struck when we came together just how different, um, and similar as well, some of our journeys were, some of our stories were what we were like as characters and people, and you know, that echoed as well from my own family unit.
So my mom and dad, very, very different characters and always being really curious and interested about what creates that. What creates the. The different ways we lead ourselves and what creates our different experiences, what makes us go on to do different things? Why can one person go on to [00:04:00] achieve everything they set their mind to their heart to, and have the most amazing experience and journey and really appreciate that journey in life?
And what are the factors that really negatively impact people in their life and go on to have. Native outcomes, whether it's addiction, whether it's severe mental illness or those sorts of things. So I think in my family, I've seen the spectrum. Because it's such a huge family, and I've seen that on a really small scale within my own family unit, but also my wider family.
And so I think from a very early age, I was really curious about what is it that leads to that. And then as I went through all my different experiences, whether it's schooling, first jobs, working as a journalist, working as a teacher, growing up in a really cosmopolitan part of London, in East London. Just seeing all the different ways people's life experiences can be affected and noticing [00:05:00] really early on that leaders can have such an influence on that.
So whether a leader strives to bring, I often talk about the sun in or the clouds in, can make such a big difference. Um, and I also think, going back to the point you were saying about self-leadership. Self-leadership has a such a vast impact on how people turn up and show up for life. So I go back to my very beginnings, but then I think that's been reiterated through all of my experiences, my work experiences, the environments I've been working in.
It's just really sharpened down for me. That we need to know more about positive leadership. We need to know more about how we bring the best out of ourselves and we need to help ourselves to do that, but we need to help others to do that. So that's a, I guess, a kind of whistle stop of what got me to be so interested in positive leadership.
Cameron: Hmm. I can imagine that that big family grapevine, seeing all these different people self lead in a different manner and [00:06:00] seeing the outcomes with front row seats must have been quite interesting.
Cornelia: Totally. Super interesting and it's constantly evolving, so learning more and more.
Cameron: So what is positive leadership?
How does it differ from other forms of leadership for people hearing this for the first time?
Cornelia: Yeah, great question. So, and often quite a misunderstood concept. So when people think of the term positive leadership, if they've not. Come across it before they might be thinking, oh, it's about how we're constantly positive as leaders.
So it's all about being positive all at the time and putting a shiny facade on everything and being really Pollyanna about what's going on. And it's not that at all. And so I suppose anyone listening to that for the first time, I'd, I'd encourage them to suspend what they understand of the term positive and leadership.
And it actually comes from. Positive psychology. So the scientific exploration of optimal functioning. So how do we bring the best outta people, [00:07:00] individuals, communities, et cetera. So what is the scientific field and what does that tell us about that? And that's been applied into an understanding of leadership and what that looks like in terms of how we lead, how we get people to follow.
So it's the integration of positive psychology and what we know in leadership together. So it's the objective of the word positive into leadership. So in terms of what that actually means and what that looks like, I definitely am not one of the first people to start or develop this field. So positive leadership really started dominantly with Kim Cameron's work in the us.
So looking at what does extraordinary performance look like? And he was looking at what does that practice look like in organizations where we create a positive environment, a positive culture. And ex achieve extraordinary result. And, and what I had done with my research and working with Yolanda Burke on this as well, is l [00:08:00] update I, I guess, more of Kim Cameron's work and other earlier positive leadership researchers into thinking, well, what does that actually look like in practice?
So positive leadership. I would think about it now as kind of positive leadership 2.0, and it's looking at how do we bring the best out of ourselves and others. So it's the both, and it's myself and you, Cameron. Rather than just how do I bring the best out myself? It's how do I bring the best out of me and you so we can create great outcomes for ourself, for our team, for our organization, for our community, and the wider stakeholders as well in order to achieve the best results we can.
Cameron: Yeah. King Cameron's work is fantastic in terms of what makes a virtuous institutes and
Cornelia: exactly how to, yeah,
Cameron: yeah. Really important. Yeah. Is that, is that so
Cornelia: important?
Cameron: Have those virtues been integral into positive leadership, or has research vied off?
Cornelia: Yeah. Well, I suppose it, it's a very much a [00:09:00] pro-social, um, research area, so those virtues are inherent in that and.
The research that we have done and when we've looked at, well, what does that actually look like in practice? You know, values has come up as really important. So people understanding what brings the best outta themselves in terms of their meaning, their purpose, and how they put that into action. So on that level, that's really important.
And the, the virtuousness in terms of how the collective work together across those resources. Is really important. So it's definitely there. And then in terms of strengths, understanding our strengths, our character strengths as individuals, as team players, that's also really important as well. So it's still there, but I suppose the research from my perspective, has shifted more to what does this actually look like in practice?
So what are the palpable, tangible things leaders can do? To bring them best, the best outta themselves and others. And there is another [00:10:00] researcher, Marcus Ebner in Austria, who's doing lots of work around that in terms of the PERMA framework as well. So our model, a positive leadership, the Enlight model, which I'm sure I'll talk to you about a bit more in a moment, integrates health for the first time.
So a real deeper understanding of how can we promote health, how can we orientate health, how can we integrate health? In what we're doing, and I suppose that kind of veers away slightly from Kim Cameron's work and other works so far. That might be the kind of slight difference in direction we're going in.
Cameron: Elia's Research on positive leadership outlines an alight model to help leaders self-reflect on six fundamental resources that can, alight being the acronym alight their own and their teams positive leadership. [00:11:00] The first principle A is abundance. A leader's inclination towards seeing, developing, and using their own and other people's.
And organizational strengths, compromises of three main components. Firstly, a strength mindset, which refers to a leader's belief that strengths are malleable. Secondly, strength spotting meaning an ability for leaders to name their strengths and strengths of others. And thirdly, strengths use, which refers to a leader's ability to apply strengths in their daily life and encourage others to do the same.
L stands for limberness. A leader's ability to adapt, be emotionally agile, and become resilient in changing contexts. I stands for inspiration and this differs from leaders being perceived as inspirational, which implies that they might need to be superhuman. Instead, it, it is a resource that helps leaders move themselves and their teams to [00:12:00] resolute action through self-efficacy, hope and optimism, and energizing.
Of the networks in the system. Next is Grand Design, an ability to transcend day-to-day activities into meaningful, purposeful contributions.
Then H stands for health. Referring to a leader's ability to truly prioritize health in the broadest sense of themselves and their colleagues. IE promoting healthy, healthy behaviors, taking actions to ensure a healthy environment, and integrating the health between leaders and their tribe and consideration of wider stakeholders.
And lastly, tea Standing for tribe. Refers to the leader's ability to assess, initiate, foster, develop, and redevelop relationships to meet our relational needs as an individual team, organization, and the [00:13:00] system. This can be achieved through connection and positive interpersonal processes, including positive conflicts, which is about leaning into and prospering from conflict.
So what are the, some of the practical. Segues leaders would come to where they're, they then go, hang on, what leadership hat do I want to apply now? What would be, uh, yeah. Can you gimme a practical day-to-day example of positive leader?
Cornelia: Yeah, sure. Yeah, definitely. So obviously when you get asked that question, you get all these images of clients in your mind popping up and why they've segued.
And I think the biggest segue I'm noticing is. Transitioning transition points. So when someone's moving from a certain position in an organization to more senior position in an organization, and the way that they've been working isn't necessarily getting them the results. That they need to [00:14:00] get now. So there could be that transition point of where someone's changing role in leadership.
So becoming a more senior leader, for example. It could also be organizationally going through a change where the strategy and the direction the organization needs to go in the model of leadership they've had isn't gonna help them get in that direction that they need to go in because it's not gonna bring people with them as well as it can.
So. There are lots of different examples I can think about this. So one more practical example that comes up in my mind is a particular female leader that I've worked with for, for a considerable amount of time, a CEO of a large care home chain in the uk. So thinking about the social care sector, who moved from being the CFO to the CCEO in a really short space of time.
And at the same time the organization ended up, um, being sold by its French asset management. Into and being put out for sale essentially. And she [00:15:00] got backing through another asset management in, uh, the UK to do a management buyout. So they're the leader who is thinking about how do I, how do I rock and roll as a CFO, who's suddenly becoming a CEO, who's suddenly doing a management buyout?
So for her, what was really important was she needed to find a way. Quickly, so to speak, to help her think about her thought patterns, help her think about her limberness, her adaptability, her emotional agility, her resilience to ride a really difficult wave that hadn't been tr TRD before. There was no pathway for getting where she needed to go, and so she knew about positive leadership.
We dabbled our toes together in some work on positive leadership, but she really needed a, a support partner to help her make that journey. And so now. Moving that further on. She also is thinking about a big growth plan that they've got in mind. So they wanna double the number of homes they have in the course of five years, and she needs to also bring her rest of her leaders [00:16:00] along in this new vision that they're co-constructing together.
Which requires a different type of leadership to what they may be used to. So quite often we see in organizations this kind of parent-child dynamic where the head of the organization, the CEO says, this is the way we're gonna lead. This is what we're gonna do, and come on, join in line, let's go. And then sometimes the rest of the employees are a bit like children who are like, okay, you've given me the direction I'm gonna go with that.
Whereas what's really needed is an adult to adult relationship between the CEO and the other leadership counterparts in the organization. And that requires positive leadership. It requires everyone to own themselves, understand themselves, bring the best outta themselves and those around them. And so we are looking at now, we're rolling now a program of development to help all of the leaders in that organization.
Bring the best outta themselves and and be the authentic, best versions of themselves. And that will allow them to go on this growth journey that they haven't before been on. So that's, I suppose, one practical [00:17:00] example of where a leader might think, you know, hang on a second, I need a different type of leadership.
So it is not just about authentic leadership or transformational leadership, it's something bigger than that. It's bigger than me, and it's about everyone in this organization rather than just me. So when that real fundamental shift needs to happen, mindset changes, behavioral changes, that's where I feel positive leadership can really add value.
The other area is fast growing small organization, which I'll often be working with. For example, what's come up in my mind is a tech organization who are literally developing things as they go along and don't have a really clear leadership framework in place, A really clear understanding of what they want their culture to look like and be like.
And they understand and learn more about positive leadership and want to kind of bring that and integrate that into their journey and where they're going. So a different way of not necessarily bringing in a new model, but actually bringing in a model to start with to help their growth so they can [00:18:00] go in the direction that they want to go in.
Equally, another organization, large financial organization. Their old model leadership model isn't fit for purpose anymore. It's gonna actually get in their way of their success. They need to think about how does everyone become a leader in the organization? They need to think about how do we all innovate?
How do we all create, how do we all grow? And positive leadership brings that opportunity where other forms of leadership haven't always brought that opportunity.
Cameron: Yeah. Interesting examples, especially the first two, whenever there's. Uncertainty or complexity. Yeah. The individual, the lead aid, we often kind of, we fear comes in and we don't become our optimal self and we often default for a lot of people to command and control styles of leadership course.
Yeah, of course.
Cornelia: So natural, yeah.
Cameron: Yeah. More transactional styles of leadership. So really helpful to have that focus on. Coming back to what you said at the very beginning, it's not [00:19:00] me doing a good job or it's not specifically helping the person next to me, but helping us as a we as a unit. Yeah. You know, how do we move forwards?
Yeah, definitely. You mentioned transformational leadership. How does transformational or lead the ship, integrate or fit into the concept of positive leadership?
Cornelia: So it's probably the most closely aligned model I would say, along with authentic leadership as well. So Fiona Bedo Jones, around authentic leadership, it fits in really well in the sense that we're thinking about going on a transformative journey.
So we are kind of inside out opportunity. So there is the real connection there and how do we, how do we tap into who we really are? How do we be really mindful about who we are? Um, and how do we grow that further? So I think the adaptability part, when we look at the Alight model, [00:20:00] um, going back to the Limberness resource, so thinking about how we are adaptable, how we are emotionally agile, that really ties into the transformational model of leadership as well.
There are some definitely overlaps and integrations and I'm really interested in looking at that more, more deeply as well. Um, and. You know, it's something that I kind of mapped to think about positive leadership, the light model, Kim Cameron's models, other models, transformational, authentic. And I think sometimes it's more about understanding, well, what does the client in front of you want and need?
And therefore what aspects of these different leadership models could be helpful to them. But I think the type of clients that that come to me, or the organizations that come to me. Want that both and the kind of we, us, the wider piece, which I think transformational leadership doesn't necessarily offer.
It very much [00:21:00] focuses on and not always. I think if it's done well, not always, but it can just focus on the individual more than the collective. So I think maybe that's more of the differences. But be interested to know your opinion as well. Cameron.
Cameron: I mean, it, it seems that the. Probably very aligned. Yeah.
It sounds like positive leadership has a, a wider remit bringing in things such as health or bringing in Yeah. Wider aspects of the field of positive psychology as a whole.
Cornelia: Yeah. You know, but I, exactly, exactly.
Cameron: But I'm imagining both very focused on learning, growing, using strengths and helping people self-actualize in the workplace in order to exactly increase team performance.
Cornelia: Yeah, and really deepening that self-awareness piece. I think that's a real strong tie between them both.
Cameron: Are you looking [00:22:00] to improve your performance Stressless and flow more? Do you want to improve the human performance in your organization or team? If so, we are here to help our team of experts specialize in helping individuals and businesses integrate a high performance practice and culture. So if you want to take your performance to the next level, or integrate the lessons and skills you hear on this pod into your leaders and teams, go to flow center.org today.
The official site of flow training and flow coaching. So what are the common obstacles? I mentioned one in terms of, of just being promoted and ah, you know, help. Um, yeah. And that kind of fear kicking in and us, our ego setting in and us wanting to do a great job, and suddenly it becomes all about me and my leadership.
Mm-hmm. Or with firefighting and, and it becomes about trying to [00:23:00] just. Problem solve and pet lids on, on hot smoke. What are the kind of common obstacles you are finding that not just the people consciously agreeing with it going, yeah, this is a, a really important framework, but actually integrating it into day-to-day workplace.
Cornelia: There are lots of barriers. There are lots of challenges that I come across. One thing that I'm really curious about at the moment and finding really interesting is. Intergenerational challenge in the C-Suite. So on the executive boards, if we think about the decision makers who are thinking about whether we bring something like positive leadership into an organization, sometimes when we have people of different generations, they think and receive some of this slightly differently.
So baby boomers versus generation X, generation Z, like there is a, there is a difference there. So. Whether an organization wants to continue in a TRA trajectory [00:24:00] of apparent safety and stability versus innovation and change. So for example, coming from my mind at the moment is A-A-C-E-O and a CF O2 ge, different generations baby boomer, and then 1980s born leader and.
Just their different ways of recognizing the value of what positive leadership can bring. So I spoke to you earlier on about the misunderstanding of that label and the under thinking. It's all about Pollyanna leadership, but actually recognizing that positive leadership is more about the integration of positive psychology into how we lead and what the benefits of that can be.
So for example. With the Alight model. So there's six different resources that we've identified in our research. The Tribe resource, which is all about how we connect, how we build high quality connections, and how we lean into positive conflict is something which perhaps if we go back into kind of 10, 15, 20 years ago, plus organizations are veering away [00:25:00] from.
So it's very much, to use your point of the. Command and control the boss leader versus the authentic leader. I'm not gonna show any vulnerability. I'm not gonna show any connection. I'm not gonna get too close to people I work with. I'm gonna stay very much in my box of work, and this is my delivery. This is what I'm gonna do, rather than who I am and what I want and what I strive for.
My meaning, my purpose. And so some of the barriers to entry can be just gen, different generational ways of seeing how we should lead or what leadership looks like and can look like moving forward. So sometimes that can be, um, a barrier to entry. Um, also that kind of, again, going back to lack of innovation, creativity piece.
If an organization's in a really difficult spot, they're in a tricky spot. It might be they're falling, be behind on what shareholder expectations it might be. They're in a crisis situation. It's so easy for fear to take over [00:26:00] and shift us to what we think works, what has worked always in the past. So that kind of common sense.
And that what can it inevitably be quite a biased approach as well? Kind of what's worked for me rather than what could work for others and what can draw on the diversity of all of our strengths as a team, as an organization. How can we look for things we haven't looked for before? That's a very unknown and that can feel very frightening compared to going back to the known, going back to the familiar, going into our kind of bias, our negativity bias as well.
So that can be a big challenge. So for example. An organization I've been working with an education trust in the North northwest of England. And, and you might not have necessarily heard too much about this, Cameron, but at the start of this summer there was a really, um, tragic incident that happened in the northwest of England in an area of the country called Southport.
It's a very calm by the seaside [00:27:00] place and. There was a really difficult, tragic situation where very unprovoked attack by, we still don't really know why or how it's happened, but several children were tragically killed in a dance class and it had a really horrific ramification. And still having that across the community, but also across the all of England, because it has it's provoked a lot of hostility.
It's. Completely unrelatedly drawn on, uh, a lot of right-wing extremism narratives across the uk. And I coincidentally had been working with the education trust in that area. And very sadly, one of the schools that was really affected by this tragedy, where two of the young children from and the school were, were very affected, including one current pupil who was killed and one former pupil who was [00:28:00] killed.
And when something really horrific like that happens, there is no course of action to respond to it. There is no, this is the pathway of how we respond to that horrific, tragic accident. So the CEO of that education trust and the head teacher of that primary school had decisions to make very quickly about how they responded to those really difficult situations.
And they could have taken a very command and control. This is what we do from the top downwards. This is the way we act and this is what we do. And we don't connect to our feelings. We don't think about our community, we don't think about the broader picture. We just act in a very siloed, task driven, this is how we respond to this situation.
And I use that as a really extreme example of what might, if we think about the corporate world and we think about corporate organizations that we might be dealing with. It's quite often not a matter of life and death, [00:29:00] but it can feel really anxiety provoking, really fear provoking when we're not getting the results that we need, et cetera, et cetera.
So that head teacher and that CEO could have responded in a very shutdown, siloed, come on and control way, and both of those individuals really lent into positive leadership and what that looks like for themselves and for everyone around them. They both really tuned into their values, who they were as people, what their strengths were.
And they also thought about, well, who else do we need around us? Who are the team that have the wider strengths and values that we need? And we are open to that. We're open to offers for help. We're open to offers of support. And they also really clearly thought about their tribe. So who, who are in our school communities that really need us right now?
Who are the parents that need us right now? Who are the wider support services that read us right now? We are gonna open up our school and we're gonna invite everyone every day to come in to get the support they need, [00:30:00] whatever it is they need. We might not know the answers, we might not be able to respond straight away.
But we'll be there and we'll open our doors and we'll have conversations and we'll try and understand what's needed, and we'll offer the support as and when and we'll, we'll, we'll build as we go as well, and we'll draw on each other's creativity, and we'll think about how do we heal from this? And we'll think about what are the flowers we can plant, the trees we can plant that can help us heal from this?
How can we support the families who've been directly involved as well? So there's that real, I think with positive leadership, there's that real openness of all those six different resources of what are the strengths we have the abundance piece, what is the limberness? How do we not respond in a way that fear tells us to respond?
But how could we just keep open our response right now and be adaptable, be flexible, be emotionally agile, recognize I'm feeling really sad right now. I'm finding this really difficult. And I'm gonna be honest about that and I'm gonna say I'm finding this [00:31:00] out. I'm finding this difficult, I dunno the way forward, but we're gonna figure it out together.
And by acting in that way, and inspiration's a big one here, having real hope. Having real optimism, getting energy from your network, being confident in yourself that I do have the resources to get through this, and I know everyone around me has the resources to get through this. We don't want to be getting through this.
We don't want to be fighting through this, but we are, and we're gonna work together on this. All those different aspects of positive leadership and, and the model that we've developed in positive leadership in practice. Are what's really gonna help someone in that situation. And I'm really pleased to say that the head teacher, that school community, that education trust, they have dealt with this situation beyond anything I could ever have imagined.
They just have done so incredibly well. It's a really difficult situation still for everyone in that community and it will be [00:32:00] for some time, but it is. It, it's just inspirational what they've done. So I've kind of, I, I've gone off slightly in a tangent there, but in terms of what the barriers are, sometimes it's about openness and trust.
And if we are not gonna make a leap of trust and we're not gonna be open to what the future holds, then it's really easy to push away from positive leadership. But if we can be open and trust, it can make a really big difference.
Cameron: Yeah, an amazing story. An amazing example. And I imagine through that response they've been able to mitigate that distrust and the us against them and me against you.
And the divides that often set in during those difficult moments where everyone wants their piece of pie and, and doesn't get it. And it's a really nice example. Hopefully you are, if you haven't already written up a, a case study around it. You know, you stated once in something you wrote that I read, leadership is a choice in the complex moments [00:33:00] we find ourselves in, which I absolutely love and hearing you talk just then, I tried to put myself in a leader's position who isn't embodied in their most optimal leadership style and going through the kind of day-to-day struggles of well.
I, I've got a million things to do, people are chasing at my heels and, and then I went and thought about the response that so many companies took when Covid first hit and all that fear that sets in and that when often we don't feel like we have a choice in leadership, we have to feel like we're just doing what needs to be done.
Yeah. How do you. Get past that initial block with people when they're saying, well, this is all great and I [00:34:00] want to involve everyone for sure and build trust. Mm-hmm. But all of that takes time. And right now I'm trying to keep a company athletes and I want to keep the jobs that the people in it going.
How do you get past that initial sort of rigidity? That people often have, including myself when I'm tired. Yeah. Or triggered or so forth.
Cornelia: Yeah, me too. Yeah.
Cameron: How, how do you get past that to then implement positive leadership and practice?
Cornelia: Fabulous question. Really fabulous question that rigidity, that kind of no choice, and we talk a lot in psychology about learned helplessness.
As well. This idea that I can't do anything about it right now, this idea that of fixed mindedness as opposed to kind of growth mindset, and that is often fear and it's, I suppose I just want to show a lot of empathy for being in that position and also normalize that because you said it happens to you, Cameron, it happens to me, it happens to [00:35:00] everybody like this is, it's really normal human.
Reaction to feel like I just don't have time to make significant changes. At the moment, I don't have time to think differently. I've just gotta keep going and I need to just keep doing things the way I've always done things 'cause that's gonna get me to where I am. And that's really difficult when you are working with a leader or an organization or a team and they've come to you or you've been connected for whatever reason, and they're in this kind of pma, this stuckness of where they are.
And there's different ways I, I react to that depending on how stuck someone is. And there will be lots of leaders and teams and organizations who decided not to go down an innovative path with their leadership. And I respect that they made the right decision and the best decision that they could right then.
But I often will say to whether it's an individual leader or a team or an organization, whether it's a learning and development team, [00:36:00] I kind of say, well. Let's play out these two different scenarios. Let's play out, keeping on going where you are right now. Where's that going to get you? Okay, let's think about a shift in course.
Where might that shift, in course, get you? And just help people see the different directions we're gonna go on, whether we steer the ship east or whether we steer the ship west. It's a choice. And it is funny that you bring up the pandemic, um, situation and the changes and the reactions that were made.
And I've been thinking a lot recently about how we sometimes feels like we've not necessarily learned lessons from that really significant moment in time in our lives. Because you've got lots of organizations demanding people come back to work full time. In the office and the impact that that's having on people and how that, again, isn't being considered across generations, across individual [00:37:00] perspectives, individual situations.
Um, and so I think helping people think about what do they really want to achieve? You know, what is their vision? Where are they trying to go? What, and we talk about a lot in, in our model of positive leadership, of grand design. So what is your grand design here? So what is the purpose for you doing what you wanna do?
What is the meaning of what you're trying to do, what you're gonna do, and what does that look like in terms of the daily actions that play out and like audit that between what you're doing now versus what that does look like and where are the gaps and how can we address those gaps? How can we narrow those gaps and work together more in the vision of where you want to go?
Than where you might go if you carry on coursing going on the course of direction that you're going on right now. So helping people maybe see the differences of what the outcome might be if you carry on doing what you're always doing or, or try something different. Also, it's [00:38:00] unpicking what are the real fears.
So I often say to people, let people go there. Like had had you come across the wobble technique, Cameron.
Cameron: No, I am intrigued. No.
Cornelia: Okay. So this is something, it, it's, it sounds really funny and it's really, it sounds really basic and you think about jelly wobbling on a plate, but thinking about the word wobble and the letters of wobble, so if you think about the W of wobble, and then you think about the BB of wobble, when you think about the, so think about w what's the worst thing that could possibly happen?
So I often, when people are in those positions where they're feeling really stuck, I want them to think about what is the very, very, very worst thing that can happen in the situation. Like, how can you literally play this catastrophically? How can you play this catastrophically and what does that look like?
And let our brains go there. 'cause sometimes our brains just need to be allowed to feel the fear. Mm-hmm. And feel the worry. And then I get people to think about, okay, right, let's think about [00:39:00] all those worst case scenarios. And they come up with things and I say, no, no, no. I want you to think really darkly here.
What is the worst that can happen? And just let people go there. And then think about the bb. What's the very, very best thing that could happen in this situation and what could that look like? What is the very, very, very best thing? Like they won the lottery, whatever. What's the best thing that can happen?
And then the LE is okay, right? So we thought about what's the very, very worst thing that can happen in this situation, whatever it is you're trying to do. We thought about the very, very best thing that could happen. Now let's just turn to what the most likely thing is gonna happen in this situation. And sometimes what I see is when we let people think about the very worst things that can happen, we can liberate their mind to realize, you know what?
Even if that happened, I'd get through it. I'd be okay. I would survive. And actually I've stopped thinking about the very, very best thing that can happen. I've stopped my brain thinking about the possibilities, the opportunities, and then actually what's the most likely [00:40:00] thing gonna happen. And so sometimes I think if you carry on doing the way you are always gonna do things, is that gonna lead you to the most worst possible outcome?
The best possible outcome, the most likely outcome? Or how can we shift course, you know, how can we bring in some components, some elements of positive leadership that might contribute? To more of the best outcome or might mitigate against some of the worst outcomes or might support more of the likely outcomes.
So that's another way that I might help people reduce that rigidity of their mindset. And if these are things I apply to myself as well, Cameron, you know? Mm-hmm. We're all, we're all able to go into that fixed mindedness, that rigidity. And sometimes we just need support to shift our perspective.
Cameron: Yeah.
Yeah. I love that wobble analogy 'cause it's, it's good to wobble from side to side and examine the extremes and then come back and all those answers you gave, you know, I did ask you what you do and they sort of preface someone having an aid of a [00:41:00] coach, which would come across in, in your answers 'cause that's what you do.
But it, I think it's touched on a really important point. It's when we have a coach, we're able to have that reflection. We're able to have that bounce back. We're able to have your perspectives and ideas, help the individual, and so often I see leaders out there trying to do it on their own and only notice that they're in a suboptimal place, way down the rabbit hole.
You know, when they've already made a mistake or pissed someone off, or regretted a particular decision or so forth. I, I think we probably share this same. Passion or belief here that coaching is, is one of the best ways to empower people and bring out the best in because we don't have all the answers.
And over time I've tried to help people build their own inner coach, right? So we, we coach ourselves with ourselves talk and putting messages so that we can see them and so we can reflect on things, [00:42:00] but so often without that regular touch point. We are too busy, we're too stuck in the weeds to really optimize.
Mm-hmm.
Cornelia: Yeah, totally. I mean, so many reflections on that. And yeah, we de, we definitely do share that passion for coaching and I think particularly coaching psychology, so integrating the psychology into coaching. So integrating what we know about human behavior and how we develop the um, skills, the resources, how we understand our cognitions, our emotions to help us unpick where we want to go, how we want to go there.
And I think that reflective space is so important and I love that you mentioned self-coach as well, because I suppose one thing that I am reflecting as you're talking is, is a wonderful opportunity and privilege to have a coach, right? So to be able to work with [00:43:00] somebody to support you with this and to ha create reflection space for you, there are other ways to do that.
Our self-reflection. Taking time to constantly reflect on my practice, whether it's daily reflection, weekly reflection, monthly reflection as a leader, whether we integrate that into our team meetings, whether we create a coaching culture, which means we support one another in a team, in an organization to coach one another, whether we ask questions rather than give, give answers, there are ways we can create this kind of reflective.
Thinking space and integrate it more, but it's, I mean it's, it has huge positive benefits on individuals when they do engage with coaches on teams, on organizations. But I don't want to, I'm very much in favor of democratizing access to coaching as well, and particularly where we've seen in coaching it being [00:44:00] much more accessible to senior.
Figures in organizations rather than necessarily more junior managers, more junior, um, learners, um, more junior members of organization. And I think that's where positive leadership, and again, I'm obviously biased around this, but understanding that as a framework and developing that and integrating that in individuals, in teams and organizations.
Does encourage creating that reflective space for people to think and it's, I think going in that constant autopilot mode where you get to that suboptimal place that you spoke around Cameron, where you get there because you just haven't taken a moment to breathe or reflect. We're all, um, guilty of this.
We're just human beings. This happens. But again, I think that's one of the ways that positive leadership integrating that can create more of a coaching environment, coaching space.
Cameron: Yeah, no, I think with positive leadership we prioritize our own [00:45:00] headspace, our own optimal levels of functioning,
Cornelia: which is so important.
Yeah. And I think in the health resource is one of the key, when we talk about where that, that research area is going, I think really thinking about what do I need as a leader to promote my health myself? How do I need to orientate my team around me to prioritize their health and how do we integrate that in decision making that will, as I think we all know, if we look at the, what's so important for us on our health, our mental health, our physical health, it's creating time and space.
It's such an important part. And if we, if we really are honest with ourselves and true to ourselves, that is, that space is so important.
Cameron: Fantastic. Well, Cornel would sort of slowly coming to the end. I think you e could chew the fat on this for [00:46:00] quite some time. Given that be, and before we run out of time, a book or film has had a huge impact on you and a question for myself.
Cornelia: Great. Uh, so I'm slightly stuck on this one because I absolutely love books and I'm obsessed with reading and I love fiction and nonfiction and, you know, I love films as well, so it's like, what do I say to Cameron?
Film book, film book. And, but I thought, okay, put my positive leadership hat on. Um, and Steve and Joseph, have you come across his work on. Right, authenticity. So, um, he's written a book called Authentic and it's all about how we can be more authentic and more attuned to ourselves. And this so much ties into going back to your question on transformational leadership, positive leadership.
How can we understand and know ourselves better? And it was just a real joy to read that book. Because it's very [00:47:00] much guided and reflective throughout the book. So going back to how do we create time and space to think, it was such a joy to read the stories and the narrative, but also. It was selfishly an opportunity for me to take time to reflect on many of the questions about understanding myself, knowing myself, and being more closely attuned to who I am in myself.
Mm-hmm. And I read that book probably about gonna say a moment in time for me in my early thirties reading that. And, you know, if I go back to that book, it is, it is very formative, it's very helpful. So. I would definitely promote reading that book. Yeah, it's a lovely book.
Cameron: Time to flip the mic.
Cornelia: And then in terms of a question for you, Cameron, I'd love to ask you loads of questions because I'm incredibly nosy and curious and you've done amazing work, so I wanna know all about that.
But I suppose one of the questions you asked me about why did I get into what I do, and so I'm really interested in [00:48:00] what you have. Began to understand about your own values and what really drives you to do what you do. So I'd love to know more about you really, and what drives you to do what you do in terms of your personal values, your backstory, who you are.
Cameron: Mm-hmm. Thank you and uh, I'll try and be concise. It's a good question. It's one that I often reflect on and come up with different answers for. Yeah. And sometimes there's, I think in my younger years there's probably been more of a, a childhood hangover that might have been driving things in terms of tomatoes behaviors, trying to fulfill needs and so forth.
I think nowadays I find myself. F constantly coming back to curiosity, connection and, and challenge. I love things that are challenging. I just, I love that complexity and I, I, I find that so engaging and I [00:49:00] like to take that curious approach to things because I feel that's where the juices, you know, that's where the newness, the novelty is.
That's where the, the beauty of life is. And, and connection is something I think I will always seek and. Whether it's with my surfboard or my tennis racket or the person I'm coaching with, I do a lot of coaching and practice, and no doubt that connection is a, a sort of a, a driver for why I spend so much time doing that.
So I, I think those are three principles, but I also just get fascinated in people and why people are people and how do we get the best out of people and how do we evolve as humans. I think there's so much sort of automation that goes on that limits us and yeah, it's such a, a source site to see it happening around.
And I. Yeah, kind of get frustrated when I see friends and family members where they're clearly talented, they're clearly intelligent [00:50:00] people, but they perhaps don't, coming back to your point right at the very beginning, perhaps itself, lead themselves in in the best way. And I think that's the same for humanity as a whole.
And, and so to help us evolve as a species per se, I think it's really important we have these conversations and constantly edge closer and certainly. Myself, it's, it's like if I don't prioritize my, my evolution daily.
Cornelia: Yeah. Yeah. My au
Cameron: my automatic mind takes control and I go down to all sorts of places I don't want to be,
Cornelia: so, so, um, and I love the fact that for you it's a daily practice as well, not to go down that automation and I think.
That's so important, isn't it? And something that we're all, we're all wanting to work on and hopefully people listening to the podcast are wanting to, to work on as well. So, um, I think that was a lovely answer. Thank you.
Cameron: Well, thank you. Thank you very much for your time.
Cornelia: Great. Brilliant to be on here.
Thanks, Cameron.
Cameron: Flow unleashed. [00:51:00] Unleashed in a world of differing leadership styles. My chat with Cornelia reminded me of the necessary humanity we sometimes forget when under the pump. As leaders, we tend to think we need to have all the answers. We need to look strong and unwavering them. We forget about the connection with our colleagues and how we can empower our team using their resources and ideas during difficult times.
Cornelia talked about having an adult to adult relationship with our team rather than feeling the need to parent them. I'm sure we've all been in a position in which we are unsure how to proceed. And as our insecurities get triggered when thinking about failing as a leader, we tend to double down or close ourselves off to those around us, excluding our most valuable resource, them the team, and potentially losing their trust and connection in the process.
So the next time you find yourself in a pickle or unsure how to lead either yourself or others, [00:52:00] reflects about the lessons we've learned from positive psychology. And instead, empower yourself to be authentic, connected, emotionally agile, healthy, and hopeful. To hear more from Cornelia, please see the show notes.
Thank you for listening to Flow Unleashed. If you enjoyed listening, please subscribe to get notified when our next episode drops. The more people that subscribe, the better I can make the show for you. Equally, please leave a review. Your review will go a long way to helping others find this pot until the next time.
Thank you for listening to Flow Unleashed.
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