Ed Sobey

Cameron: [00:00:00] Flow unleashed, unleashed, unleashed.
Do you ever wonder how to foster innovation? Well, think about what all inventors have in common. In this episode, we unpack the impact that education and our attitude to facing challenges has on innovation.
Welcome to Flow Unleashed. I'm Dr. Cameron Norsworthy, scientist and high performance coach to multiple world champions. In this show, we unpack key insights on specific topics so that you are kept up to date with the latest science and practice of human performance.[00:01:00]
In a world that demands progress at lightning speed, innovation isn't just a nice to have. It's a necessity. Whether you're an entrepreneur launching a new venture, a business leader seeking to outpace competitors, or an athlete pursuing the competitive edge. One thing is clear. Staying ahead means constantly evolving.
Innovation has become the backbone of today's competitive landscape, but to leverage it effectively, we must move past the buzzwords and dig into what innovation really means. At its core, innovation is about doing something differently to create value, be it a groundbreaking product, service, or way of thinking.
Consider Tesla's game changing electric vehicle debut in 2008. Or Google's revolutionary search engine launch in 1998. [00:02:00] These weren't mere tweaks. They were monumental paradigm shifts driven by visionaries who dared to challenge the status quo. Beyond revolutionary ideas, innovation creates adaptability.
When unforeseen challenges like the COVID-19 pandemic hit. Innovation allowed some businesses to pivot successfully while others faltered. By clinging to outdated models, it also creates growth. Avoiding stagnation is essential in today's competitive environment. Innovation fuels organizational and personal development and differentiation.
In crowded industries, innovation sits you apart transforming one of many into one of a kind. Our guest today, Dr. Ed sobe, epitomizes the essence of innovative thinking. With a career that spans from being the founder of the US National Inventors Hall of Fame to [00:03:00] hosting invention focused TV shows. Ed's journey is a masterclass in creative disruption.
He's a scientist, extreme adventurer, and author who has explored all seven continents, cross stations, and even help create artificial reefs by pushing Royals Royces into the Atlantic. A fellow of the Prestigious Explorers Club whose alumni also include legends such as Sir Edmund Hillary, Jack Picard, and Neil Armstrong.
Ed is continuously examining how we can curate innovation today and tomorrow. With over 35 published books and numerous teaching accolades, including four Fulbright Grants, ed Sobey's work continues to inspire inventors and entrepreneurs worldwide. Today we'll dig into his extraordinary experiences and tap into his insights and curating innovation in education, staying adaptable, and turning the [00:04:00] extraordinary into everyday practice.
This conversation has been remastered from several years ago. It was recorded from a remote location with limited bandwidth. So apologize if the audio quality is not up to scratch flow unleashed. Welcome to the show, ed. Thank you. Great to be with you. Absolutely. It's a privilege to be able to have some time to sit down and have a chat.
What's the main message you are looking to get across, whether it be in your books or teacher training?
Ed: Well, certainly when we're dealing with teachers, and we usually work with science teachers, our main message is have kids do science, which. It doesn't sound very shocking, but science isn't done in a classroom.
Science education is often done where the teacher presents something or [00:05:00] reads something or does a demonstration, and the students are passive. And our, our main message is, don't, don't do anything in the classroom if the students aren't active. And, and so our goal, and here's the tie in with, with what you do, is our goal is to go into a classroom, whether it be teachers sitting at the desks or students getting the participants into a state of flow and getting them actively working on projects.
And instead of going at 10% or or 15% of their mental capacity, they're going at a hundred percent of their mental capacity. And they're, they're learning at the speed of ideas.
Cameron: Yeah. I read a fascinating, the case study of yours that you actually did in Western Australia, and it sounds like, from what I [00:06:00] understand, you are helping the teachers and the stu enjoy that bottom up learning as opposed to that sort of top down content driven teaching.
Can you tell me a little bit more about that particular case study?
Ed: That was an interesting time. We were in Western Australia, uh, working for SciTech in Perth and we were doing some programs there at the science museum and they sent us, uh, north up to the Kimberly and South to Albany, and, and we made a bunch of stops along the way where we'd do workshops and in one location we had four workshops scheduled in the same day.
The first one was with. Disengaged learners, and, and we were unfamiliar with that term, but that term basically means the kids have decided they're not interested in learning, but they have to show up to a classroom or, or they get in trouble with the [00:07:00] government. So we went into this warehouse and there were some sofas and chairs and beat up furniture, and the kids were sitting there talking to one another and nothing was going on.
The instructor introduced us and said that there we were gonna do some activities. He didn't know what it was. So I, I explained very quickly what we were doing and lo and behold, not a single students got out of their seat to come over and see or participate. So my wife and I started building model cars, and the activity is building model cars and rolling them down the ramp and then measuring how far you can get the car to go.
Well, we, we were doing this by ourselves for a good five or eight minutes, and one of the students, a 17, 16-year-old boy came over and [00:08:00] said, what are you doing? And we said, well, we're, we're making model cars and we're trying to see how far they'll go. Why don't you make one? And I handed them some wheels and dowels and other material.
So yeah, he'll start that and he was working away and a couple minutes later, one of the other kids came over and joined him. And pretty soon we had another team. And within about 20 minutes we had everybody in that classroom and 15 or 20 kids. Everybody in that classroom except one girl who never participated.
Every one of them was building a car, racing it down the ramp, laughing and giggling and running and improving the car, and learning exactly what we wanted them to learn, doing exactly what we wanted to do and having a great time. And while this was going on, we [00:09:00] measured the time between innovations and so we, we'd watch 'em, test a model, scratch their head, trying to figure out how to make it better and then retest.
So we kept a, a track of that, measured time for each of the teams. Well, a couple hours later, we had our second workshop with an aboriginal school. We retreated the process there. The kids came over instantly and got engaged. Later in the afternoon, we had our third workshop, which. Was in one of the larger school districts, and we were with gifted and talented kids and they were instantly engaged.
Uh, but again, we measured how quickly they innovated. And then the fourth one and is an unfair comparison, but the fourth one was with teachers. And they were there about six o'clock in the evening for a teacher reception. And, uh, they had some wine and some hors d'oeuvres. And then we [00:10:00] came in and engaged them in our activity.
And again, we measured the time, how quickly they were to innovate. So we had four measurements throughout the day of four different populations. And lo and behold, the disengaged learners, uh, were by far the slowest to get started, but once they were started, they were the fastest to innovate. Slightly faster than the gifted and talented kids.
Uh, but definitely they were faster. These were not dumb kids at all. These were kids who figured out that school's pretty boring and they could probably get a job in just another year driving one of those huge dump trucks in the coal mine for way more money than the teacher's getting. And so why did they need school?
And, and so for us, it, it told us a couple things. One is those kids [00:11:00] who are on the fringes of the educational system are the ones who probably benefit the most from the introduction of a flow and open-ended hands-on activity, more so than the gifted and talented kids did. They did well, but they will probably always do well regardless of what the environment is.
It showed us the importance of engagement. Education is totally lost without the student engagement. So for us, that was just a wonderful day of insights, and it was exhausting day, but a wonderful day of insight into this whole learning process.
Cameron: Fascinating. How did you set things up for them to find their natural flow with it and become, you know, initially become engaged and then focus [00:12:00] concentration and then become absorbed and, and find that place of optimal learning?
Did you have a structure to that or did the model cars and the framework do that for you?
Ed: Well, our, our structure is, uh, pretty uniform and we do the same structure. We have about 50 or. Different activities that all bring in different skills of making and different content areas of science. So some is energy or forces or laws of motion or flight or whatever.
So, but we applied the same structure to the classroom and it falls perfectly from chicks, MHA and the whole concept of flow. We walk into a classroom, we've done this in the Arctic, we've done it in the tropics, we've done it, you know, trust me, we've done it a lot of places and [00:13:00] you know, good morning, hi, can you build a car, boat, plane, solar panel, blah, blah, blah, it, whatever the challenge is, it doesn't matter.
We start with, can you build. And in that there's no preamble, there's no description. There's no introduction. It's get people, kids, teachers, doing absolutely as fast as possible. 'cause otherwise you're wasting time. The longer I talk in front of the class, the more minutes are wasted. So can you build a car that rolls down a ramp?
Here's the ramp and goes as far as possible. We want to see what design allows the car to go the absolute farthest. Now, I don't tell them, we don't care how you do it. We don't care what [00:14:00] your learning style is. If you have to draw it, if you have to talk about it, if you have to pick up the parts learning style, you figure out how you wanna do it.
You're working with other people. Uh, a small team of hopefully three, maybe four people in the team. You figure it out. And I'm not gonna tell you, and if you ask me a question, very likely, I'm not gonna give you the answer you want. You know, how do I do this? I don't know. You know, you're, you're on your own.
It's your car, not mine. So the onus, the responsibility for learning is not on me. The teacher, the responsibility for learning and completing the task is on that team of students or, or participants. So we give them a challenge. We give them the material, we get out of the way. The, the challenge, a as following flow is that they're working on something that's doable, but it's not really easy.[00:15:00]
It's not something they've done 50 times before. We're not providing them a cookbook. We're not providing them any instruction whatsoever in the, in an ideal situation. So we're not telling them how to do it. We're giving them the materials. We're telling them the goal. The goal is very simple. Get your car down the ramp and across the room as far as possible, doesn't need a lot of explaining.
And that goal is measurable. So as they're testing the cars, and they do this in a fast prototype process where they test, they measure, they scratch their head, how can we make it better? They test and over and over again, just like every business in the world today works, you know that everybody does fast prototyping.
You try it, you, you look at the results, you try it again, look at the results. That's what we're doing in the classroom. When they test their cars or their boats [00:16:00] or their planes or their cranes or their whatever, when they test them, they measure. It's not. Running to the teacher and saying, how did I, do?
They know how they did. They said, wow, we, we went two meters, or we went five feet, or we went whatever. They record that. They don't need validation from me. So they run back and they remake the model and go again. The energy level in the classroom goes from almost zero when we're first introduced by the, the teacher to incredible level of kinetic energy.
Kids running about voices, very noisy, a lot of laughter. They're having a great time, but they're working incredibly hard. The whole thing goes very, very quickly, and in this process, my job is not instructing, [00:17:00] not telling them how to build the car. My job is to ask questions to open up new areas of thought that they may not have had.
So in this example, I stand at the bottom of the ramp and I ask them, what did your car do? You know, a sim simple question, but I I, I beg your readers try this with somebody sometime and just ask them what just happened? And, and you, you probably get all sorts of things other than just what just happened.
We asked that of kids, what did your car do? And they can't tell us. They'll, they'll tell us something else, but they can't tell us that, you know, did, did the car go straight? Did it stop? Did it turn left? Did it turn right? They are unable to to tell us that until we hammer on them. That's all we wanna know.
What did the car do? If you can't [00:18:00] observe? And report. You can't do science. You know, the most important skill in science. It's also the most important skill in history and probably every other field out there. If you can't observe what's happening and report it accurately, all hope is lost. And, and yet that's a skill we never teach in, in any science class.
So that's the first thing we ask. The second thing is, why did it do that? We know why it did it, but the students don't. We're not gonna tell them. We want them to think through the process. They are focused on getting their car to go far. We're interrupting them long enough to get them to think about why their car's not going farther.
So that, that's our basic model. At the end of the activity, we regroup, we look at everybody's model. We talk about the problems. We talk about, in our case, the science of of [00:19:00] the car. And then we send them home with the, can you do this at home? Do you have materials to replicate this activity? And try it again?
Because if we can get kids to do science or to do other learning at home, we have won the Battle of Education. You know, we don't need anybody to tell us that. If we can get kids to turn off the video game or turn off the Facebook or turn off the computer, whatever, and do, and think about the subjects that, that we're interested in, that we want them to learn.
Uh, if that happens, we have won the Battle of Education and, and sadly, right now we're losing the battle of education and we're losing it because the kids aren't interested and they go home and they do everything other than what we want them to think about. So you asked me a very simple question, and I'm sorry I've taken so long, but [00:20:00] that's the process we use and, and we use it with kindergarten kids and we use it with PhDs and everybody in between.
We use it with people who don't speak English and we only speak English. We've used it around the world and it universally works.
Cameron: Fascinating, and thanks for going in depth there, you know, really helps to unpack what's going on there. And for me, I picked up on the fact that you have a very clear goal and there's feedback that the individual can automatically digest and, and integrate and they've got a level of autonomy and responsibility over the project.
It's something that's, that's. Often missing in a lot of schools with this sort of top down content, pushing content down kids' throats [00:21:00] and asking them to remember, and it's really, obviously you've given them a challenge and it's the style of teaching of allowing the student to learn and being more of a facilitator and asking questions rather than giving answers.
That really allows, from our experience, really allows that student to engage, become interested, find that kind of responsibility in their own learning, and, and subsequently gain those rewards. Which leads to that kind of, there's no need for validation because they've got this intrinsic, yeah, I've made it happen.
Done it. Wicked. Right. Let's do it again. And it allows that kind of playfulness to, to come out and which allows a deeper engagement. So I got a lot from that. And very rarely in education do I see that sort of style. I see it a lot in Montessori [00:22:00] education where they allow that. It's, it's a very disciplined classroom, but they allow that intrinsic interest to develop and they, they facilitate rather than give the answers to the child and, and expect them to just to remember it.
Is this something that, first of all, would you agree with what I've said? And secondly is, is this a style that you see anywhere in education?
Ed: I, I agree with exactly what you said, and Montessori is the, the one shining place where that comes through. I, I think people are focused now, at least some people are focused on innovation academies and.
Um, trying to get to that place where we can excite more kids. I'm not sure they know how to do it yet, but there's at least that question of can we get kids into an environment in which they, they excel much [00:23:00] better than in the traditional classroom. But let me make one observation if I can, and something I didn't touch on earlier, and that is mistakes.
A, a big piece of this whole approach, and I think flow in general is allowing kids, people to make mistakes. And that's something that doesn't typically happen, at least in the US classroom. The teacher wants every child's project to, to go home, perfectly executed. And so the teacher ends up doing all the work and the kids are standing by bored out of their minds.
Having no real skin in the game. They have the other teacher made it. I'll go home and tell mom and dad that I made it, but really the teacher did all the work because the teacher insisted on every project being perfect and [00:24:00] we're taking the exact opposite. We want you to make mistakes we, or, or stated more accurately we're giving you the freedom to make mistakes.
If you don't make 'em that, that's cool, but it probably means you're not trying very hard. And, and I, I learned that when I was the director of the United States National Inventors Hall of Fame and, and all the great inventors from around the world who have patents in the United States are eligible to be nominated.
But we had the greatest inventors of our time come into. This Hall of Fame and this is the inventor of the laser and the CAT scan and the MRI and the electron microscope and the cancer fighting drugs and all these, these brilliant people came in to the, to be inducted into the Hall of Fame. And part of my job as the director was to interview them on videotape and [00:25:00] try to figure out what made them special and can we grab that, whatever that juice is that makes 'em special and sprinkle it over the kid to school today.
And I started that task and I thought, this isn't going to work. These people are so diverse, they're working in such diverse fields that there's no magic sauce here at all. And I was wrong and, and very quickly in my tenure there as director of the National Invent Hall of Fame. I interviewed a guy who made the lens and invented the lens for electron microscope, and I was interviewing him and he said, he turned to me and he said, you know, one thing every inventor in the Hall of Fame has shared, one experience they've shared is we have all had the opportunity to make mistakes early in our career when a [00:26:00] mistake would not cancel our career.
And at the time, I was a fairly young fellow and I tried to correct him. I said, oh, what, what, what you mean, sir, is that you all had the opportunity to do experimentation? And he looked at me with that look that said, no dummy, that's not what I said. He said, no, we all, every one of the inductees has had the opportunity to make a mistake in the shop or laboratory.
And because they made, they had the opportunity to make mistakes and they were able to correct themselves, they gained the self-confidence that allowed them to be the world's best. So this was not the, the brightest people in the world. They were all smart, but they weren't the, the 200 IQ or the 180 iq.
There were just very bright people who had the self-confidence that came from [00:27:00] making mistakes and overcoming that mistake. And, and that's what we're doing when we put people, kids into a flow environment. We're we're allowing them to make silly mistakes, dumb mistakes, smart mistakes, and recover and learn that they have that ability to recover and then go on to succeed.
Cameron: So important. And we see that in every industry where we're allowed that permission to just take a risk and doesn't mean we're making unnecessary risks, but that safe environment to play with the edges and push the boundaries and develop skills and try new things. And whether it's scientific research or innovation, so much comes out of those mistakes and that learning and the growth.
And we can't grow without learning and we can't learn without doing new things. And we, and things aren't new [00:28:00] often unless we're, unless we're making mistakes. And it, it seems so obvious yet. I mean, we send our kids to school to learn. Hopefully, sometimes I wonder whether it's the extended daycare service, but we send them off with the ideology to learn, to grow, to become masters of themselves, to become more capable human beings, to sharpen their abilities and pair themselves for the world outside.
And nowadays, when, you know, kids leave university, they're likely to have nearly 20 different jobs in their lifetime. And specific skills aren't necessarily as valuable as they used to be when industries were very, uh, linear. And now the ability to be creative, the ability to, to think on our feet, the ability to learn and, and be self-determined in our motivations.
[00:29:00] And so why, when it seems so obvious, for what reason do you think education systems have become. Almost the, and and obviously not speaking for all of them, but the majority of them, how have they got into a position where they've stifled this process?
Ed: Absolutely. They, they have stifled, and if you're familiar with Sir Robinson, he's done some marvelous TED talks where he expounds on schools as the leading cause for the death of creativity and learning as well.
But the whole idea of modeling schools after factories where you, you have the raw materials coming in when they're five or six years old and they each stage, each process, they go through grade one to two to three like clockwork when the kids aren't [00:30:00] really able to go with that linear process up. That nine months or 10 months of school and then I'm in the next grade and on and on and on and, and we are so bound and determined to dictate what they need to know.
And we, they just pummel the poor teacher and say, you've gotta cover all 43 chapters of this book in this year and your kids have to pass the test. And so we end up resorting to doing in a panic. What honestly, we know won't work. We tell the kids, here's the answer you need for the final exam. You know, I'm gonna give you all the answers.
All you have to do is memorize these and you'll take the exam. You'll go on to the next grade and I'll have my job for another year. And of course, that's the worst thing that can occur. 'cause some of those kids aren't ready to go on [00:31:00] and none of them remember. What the teacher just told them beyond the, the test.
Now, I, I love to do an experiment in a school. Um, if I go to the fourth or the fifth or the sixth grade teacher and I say, what's your biggest problem? They will tell me that the kids coming in and our school year starts in September. They'll say the kids coming in in September from the lower grade are not prepared.
And I say, wow, you know that, that, that's a big problem. How are they the other end? By the end of my year with them, they're fully prepared to go to the next grade. I hear that at every grade level. I hear that from the sixth grade, the fifth grade, the fourth grade, the third grade, the second grade teacher.
They're all telling me exactly the same thing, that when they leave their classroom, they're up, up to speed. I. And yet the next teacher will tell me, no, these kids aren't prepared at all. What's [00:32:00] the disconnect here? And the disconnect is the kids are able to pass the exam, but they don't have the understanding that's going to allow them to move forward in the next grade.
So we're faking this exam business. The kids are not understanding, they're remembering a few things. They get to the point where they need to use that knowledge that they're supposed to have and they fail. And the next grade level teacher has to spend two or three months of their year bringing the kids up to where they want them.
And then they do the same thing out the other end. You know, it's, it's a system that is unfavorable for the teacher. It's unfavorable for the kid. The only people who really like the system are the administrators and the legislators who keep it going. And it really has to change. In my opinion, and the only way it's gonna change is if the, the parents and the [00:33:00] teachers get together and say, we're not gonna put up with this anymore.
Cameron: That was gonna be one of my next questions. Where do you think the systemic change will come from? And there's so much, I, I speak to a lot of teachers and a lot of them understand what we're talking about and agree with it, but they feel that they don't have the time and they don't have the resources.
And most of their time is, is spent on behavioral management and ticking boxes and adhering to the red tape that is, is pressed upon them. And there's much pressure for parents to get kids into the right colleges and the right universities. In the hope of having a better job, a better life, a better income, and which falls down on the systemic tests and the standardized tests and making sure people are passing those which passes down to the teacher and preparing them for those tests and making them test ready.
And I [00:34:00] hear from the teachers that they would like to do so much more, but they just don't have the ability and the bandwidth and the time to do so. And I also see so many kids, and it seems to be that we've created almost a generation of an anxiety driven learners where they're so anxious about these tests and, and it filters into obviously all areas of their life, but it almost feels that this sort of golden opportunity to learn and develop from the ages, yeah, up until we leave school hasn't become a fun process anymore.
And, and it seems that learning stifled and to change the systems, as I'm sure some principals and schools are doing out there, do you feel the responsibility lies on the parents and the teachers to stand up and say, hang on, we don't want this anymore. [00:35:00]
Ed: Yes, we, we need a revolution. But I, I'd like to say that, uh, if you stand outside of a school in the afternoon about two 30, or maybe it's three 30, you, you hear the bell ring the door sling open, and kids scream out screaming, yay.
School's over. And about an hour later, the bell rings again and the teachers come screaming out, yelling school's over. This is fundamentally the wrong picture we want from the schools. It's not fun for the teacher, it's not fun for the students. Teachers come in. Typically, I think with a passion, with a range of skills that they can really use those skills to excite his or her classroom.
Uh, and the first thing they're, they're, you know, taught is no, you gotta, you gotta do it this way. We don't want to use your passion and your skills and your [00:36:00] to excite kids. We want you to follow the, the rubric. The, the system is systemically corrupt and it's not gonna improve from the top down. The, the people at the top have been at the top.
Uh, and although they change in and out, um, we have been crying for fundamental change for how many decades. And it, it hasn't occurred. So you, you, you know that it's not gonna come from the top. It's gotta come from the bottom up. Parents, teachers have to get together. And say, this is not the way we want schools to be at the university level.
They're not preparing kids, sorry, they're not preparing teachers for this classroom that we need this 21st century classroom. They talk about 21st century skills, but then they go back and they teach 18th and 19th century [00:37:00] methods of teaching. So many teachers come out of the educational system ready to jump into the classroom, and they don't know the subject material well enough.
They have been so labored with things that don't matter for exciting kids, engaging kids in science or art or history or music or, or whatever their, their topic is. We need people in the classroom who are passionate about their field. I see teachers every week who tell me. Oh, last year I teach taught history and I just got assigned.
I've gotta do sixth grade science. What do I do? This isn't right. If you don't have the background and don't have the passion for the subject, you, you're doomed for failure. We need legislators to listen to the educational community and there's always a lot on their plate, [00:38:00] but we need change. They need to allow the school districts, the schools to implement the change that they come up with.
And we need them. Just like this whole process of improving your car so it rolls down the ramp farthest. This flow process, this testing of prototypes, fast prototyping method, we need that to occur in schools. We don't know the absolute best method, but if we allow every school to be a fast prototype center.
Where the smart teachers say, let's try this. And they're given the freedom to try an approach, try a method, try a topic, and they see how it goes and they go, wow, that was terrific. Let's do more of it. Or, that didn't work so well. Let's try something different. If we give them that same freedom that we want to give students like you do in the [00:39:00] Microsoft or IBM or another corporate, uh, high tech company, let them go in there and try something, we'll, we'll get some nice results.
But when everything is dictated at the state or the national level by people especially who aren't in the classroom, and that's passed down to the administrators who know that their job evaluation depends on following those strictures and they squeeze the creative juices out of the teachers, we end up with a product that, uh.
It may have sufficed back in 1850 or 1890. It does not work today where we have so many kids dropping out. So many kids who complete school but don't have an education and so many kids who aren't prepared for the very different, uh, skill sets that they need in the 21st century.
Cameron: [00:40:00] Mm-hmm. And how can teachers operate in a way that's akin to allowing that more innovative, uh, teaching style to develop?
Is there a sort of a quick win that doesn't depend on a systemic cultural change? And is there something that you could offer for teachers to do within their existing parameters?
Ed: Yes, I think there is, and I. There, there's a great book on how to innovate by making small bets, and I would suggest that teachers make a small bet.
They try the focus of flow and hands-on and open classroom. They try it for maybe two hours a week and watch what happens when the parents come in and say, my my Johnny or my Sally is really excited about this thing that you're doing two hours a week. [00:41:00] When that percolates through, people start to pay attention.
We had that experience in a school system here. Fresno Unified School District had us come in and we took over their fifth grade science, um, and we gave them our, how we would do science for that year and. After a year, the teachers reported to us that the day that they did these science activities, which was always Thursday, Thursdays, they had perfect attendance.
No other day of the week did they have perfect attendance. 'cause Thursdays they were doing this open-ended innovative science activity and every kid wanted to be there. And I think that's the way you start the revolution. You, you take a small step, you make a small bet, and as parents recognize it, as other teachers and principals recognize it, [00:42:00] you, you try to grow from that point to the point where parents are saying you've gotta do that next year.
Uh, you have to do that at the next level. We're not going back to that old boring thing where my kid was barely learning anything. And so I think you make the small bet and hopefully that will grow. And if it doesn't, then you make a different small bet and you keep doing it and doing it until you find that right combination that that works.
Cameron: I, I guess there's a fear from, from managers and, and teachers that if we give people the freedom and the, if we loosen the road, say to speak, then all Ks will pursue and then kids just go crazy and so forth. How do we get past that? Is it by creating that sort of structure of a challenge and a clear goal and then trusting the students?
Ed: We have to [00:43:00] demonstrate. We can't tell 'em, just like you can't tell, uh, a kid about angular momentum. You have to get them playing with it to understand it. The same thing I think applies to flow in the open classroom. You gotta get them in there. And unfortunately it's not four or five, six hours, you have to have repeats to reinject this idea into them.
We so many workshops we have done, and a teacher will come up to us afterwards and say, oh, I love this. This is great. My children at home will love to do this. And we'll say, well, why don't you do it in the classroom? Oh no, I couldn't do it in the classroom. Why not? I mean, it's, well, why don't you do it in the classroom?
We're not doing this for you to take home your son and your daughter. We're doing this for you to take and use in your professional life. And, and I think we need people, [00:44:00] teachers who are gonna say, yes, we're gonna try this and I'm gonna get the principal to not bother me, not tell me I'm doing it wrong, and I'm gonna accept the fact that.
Sometime the kids are gonna be laughing and screaming and noisy, but they're gonna be learning. And we know what failure looks like. That's what we're doing right now. If we change anything, it's bound to be a success. This approach is a proven winner, and we just need people to have a little faith and give it some try.
Cameron: Hmm. Yeah. And often that initial trust is the hardest thing to do, and it comes from this safety to be able to try that. And, yeah. I could talk about this for hours, but you, you've also had such an interesting life, keen to delve into that a little bit more, and you're so often helping others to find their flow and to create optimal learning.
How do you find your flow?
Ed: Well, I, I find [00:45:00] my flow pretty much the same way. Whether there's a challenge, I don't know. For me it's fairly easy to jump in. I think I had that opportunity early in life to make mistakes in a loving learning environment as a kid where a mistake was not, uh, dealt with punishment or negative words thrown at me.
So I, I think I was fortunate enough to have that. So I had the self-confidence to go out and knock on a door and say, Hey, I, I've never done this, but I wanna do it. And when you do that, you have to accept that eight outta 10 or nine out of 10 of those doors you knock on, they're gonna be slammed in your face.
But who cares? Because that 10th one opens up and you're doing something very cool. Um, I, I made the jump from a consulting environmental scientist working for a pretty big [00:46:00] company and making a very nice salary to running a science museum and making a very crummy salary and absolutely loving it. And, and I had no experience in science museums, but I said, I think I can do that.
And I convinced the board of, uh, trustees and they picked me versus eight other candidates for the job. And it was a wonderful experience. And no, I was not prepared for it. And I made so many mistakes, and yet no one to this day remembers the mistakes. They remembered all the very, very cool stuff that we did there that excited the community and brought people into the museum and furthered the educational goals of the museum.
So for me personally, it's pretty easy to jump up and say, yeah, that looks like fun. Let's go do it. And I have done that. Um, well, as you know, I, I've done that in many different geographic places and I've had my own TV show, my own radio show. [00:47:00] Um, I've, I've directed museums. I've been in business for myself several times.
Um, and. Uh, it doesn't frighten me to take that step into the void because always before I've, often I've stumbled, but I've been able to pull myself back out and, and make that lemonade taste pretty sweet after tasting lemons for a while.
Cameron: Mm. So many people like yourself, who I meet and who have had such an interesting and varied life have that self-confidence to give it a go to realize that, yes, I don't have all the skills to hand and I haven't perfected the, the stepping stones that I have, faith that I'll learn along the way.
Where do you think that self-confidence comes from? Is it something that's nurtured? Is it particular experiences that you've had in your lives that have made you go, [00:48:00] yep, I can try anything? Or is it just like we talked about earlier that. Having that permission to fail and learn.
Ed: I think it's the nurturing and the experience of fairly young in life where, uh, you just given the, the freedom.
You know, you go into your uncle's, uh, garage and he has tools and he says, uh, come make something, and you make another mess. But you learn some skills and you learn, well, you know, it wasn't so bad. I didn't cut myself. I didn't get hurt. I built this cool thing that looks like trash. That experience of not having the reigns holding you back quite so tightly, letting you go and letting you try things and encouraging you to try things, you know, if you don't wanna do it, that's fine, but encouraging you wherever possible.
I have been very, very fortunate in doing expeditions [00:49:00] around the world and doing just crazy things. And so often when I finish. I'll bump into somebody who in many cases is much more talented or much smarter than I am, and they tell me, oh, I would never do that. I could never do that. And I'm thinking, why not?
Of course, if you did, then maybe I wouldn't have had the opportunity. But I think it's not genetic. I think it's not pure intelligence or athletic ability or any of that. I think it's that experience somewhere in your life where you made the mistake, you stumbled, and yet you came out smelling pretty good and probably occurs many, many times in youth, in a nurturing family or a nurturing school.
That turns out that the people who become the world's famous inventors and composers and artists and all the very, very creative people at [00:50:00] the top of their field, I think have had that same type of experience in their life.
Cameron: And I, I think that's so important what you've just touched on there, because flow research suggests it's not down to cognitive ability.
Uh, it's not down to intelligence and it's that ability to sit with the uncomfortable, jump into the void. And as parents, there's this balancing act between providing enough support and parameters to keep your child safe, but giving enough freedom and letting them go to learn to make mistakes. And a lot of parents who hang on tight thinking that we may know better or we're doing the right thing.
But the flip side of that is, is too much freedom and neglect and the child doesn't have the ability to process things. And it's, uh, it, it's a, it's an ongoing balancing act. I'm a parent myself and I have daily examples of that. And keen [00:51:00] to hear your experience there.
Ed: And we are thoroughly enjoying the experience of being grandparents and watching how our son and daughter-in-law interact with our granddaughter.
And it is such a marvel to see and to to see her just sucking up the understanding and the knowledge, and not because they're pounding on her. You've gotta know this because she wants to. And they, they give her the freedom. And it's not freedom and neglect. It's freedom and concern. And my 4-year-old granddaughter, uh, can saw a very small piece of, with, with a saw.
She's done it. She can cut bread with a sharp knife. She's done it. And it's not that the parents are turning her back and not paying attention. They're right on top of the situation, but they're giving her the freedom and providing the safety net at the same [00:52:00] time. Being a parent is a very, very tough job.
And it, it's not for sissies, it's not for, um, people who won't work at it because it is work. But, um, now having two grown sons and each of them married, boy, it is such a wonderful experience just to hang out with them and marvel at how smart they are and what good things that they're doing in life. And that to me is a reward of being a parent.
And, uh, we must have done a few things, right? Uh, whenever that was 30 years ago when we were parents.
Cameron: Do you want to help others unleash their performance? Do you want an internationally recognized accreditation to stand out amongst the crowd? Or do you want the playbook I use every day when helping professionals to be their best and find their flow when it matters most? If this sounds [00:53:00] interesting, join others who are training to become a high performance coach.
We are on a mission to train a fellowship of expert practitioners and coaches to work with us and help make the world a better place. To find out more, go to flow coaching federation.org and check out the Flow Coach Accreditation Today day,
I want touch a little bit upon the un unreasonable at sea Oy, which is, when I came across it, I was quite inspired and I, I. Seen and, uh, witnessed a few operations similar to this where for people who dunno what it is, it's, from my understanding, it's an incubator in which distinguished entrepreneurs invited to spend a hundred days at sea in order to innovate and solve some of the world's pressing problems and brainstorm [00:54:00] solutions and collaborations and so forth.
And one of the voyages you've been able to go on, how was that experience and what do you think worked so well there?
Ed: There are really two experiences there that that overlap, but one is semester at sea and I hope your listeners will write that down because if they have children in high school or university, it's a wonderful program.
We've done it four times, uh, going around the world, stopping in 12 countries. Um, and taking classes while you're at sea and exploring the country while you're at shore. And on top of that, one of the programs embedded with one semester at Sea Voyage was the Unreasonable Institute, which is kind of a funny name.
But the basic premise is that unreasonable people get things done, reasonable. People go with the what's [00:55:00] happening already, and they accept what's happening unreasonable. People say, no, we want change. And so the Unreasonable Institute trains entrepreneurs, social entrepreneurs, how to make changes, how to grow their business or their nonprofit organization, their NGO, uh, and make it do wonderful things around the world.
And so they, they have maybe 20 of these young. Very spirited entrepreneur, social entrepreneurs, and they train them every step of the way. They bring in some of the biggest names of entrepreneurs around the world. They bring in the Silicon Valley guys who, who are now billionaires to do training sessions with them.
They do role playing. And so the idea is you turn these people out after a hundred days and they go back to where they were, but with new [00:56:00] skills that will make them more successful. And so it, it is great fun to follow them along over the years to see how successful they are. And they're still plugging away and they're still doing good things.
And I think that Unreasonable Institute is just a very fun concept that seems to be growing and growing every year.
Cameron: Yeah, interesting. And I love the idea of going to school whilst traveling around the world on a cruise ship. And why not? You know, learning we can take with us anywhere.
Ed: The change in students from the time they come on.
One year ago, just about now, we were in Amsterdam and 500 students came on the ship and they come with their swagger and their background and their this and their that. And 104 days later we drop them off. Where do we drop them off? In [00:57:00] San Diego, having gone around the world through the Panama, now South America, north America, Europe, Africa, and they got off and they were changed.
There were different people getting off that ship than who had embarked for months earlier, and most of them were humbled. Uh, they had a much worldlier view. Uh, it, everything about them had had changed and grown. And it, for us on the faculty, it is such an amazing thing to see and it's great program.
Check it out, semester at Sea and The Unreasonable Institute.
Cameron: Hmm. I, I know from my own traveling we get into this amazing mindset, this sort of open, curious and zest for life, which encourages interest, encourages learning. And what do you think really works there? Is it that kind of mindset of seeing new stuff all the time that encourages that [00:58:00] mindset?
Or do you think it was the newness of each day or just the excitement around the, the travels? I mean, how could we take lessons there and try to integrate that into learning at school, at home, or in the workplace?
Ed: Well, I think the things you just mentioned are all part of it. Part of it too is being in the tribe.
And being in a series of tribes. Some are four or five people, some are 10 or 20, and some are the full ship's compliment, uh, as a single tribe. And in many of those cases, having a flow challenge in front of you, Hey, I'm at the ship and I'm trying to get to Paris, or I'm at the ship and I'm trying to, to get through Dakar Senegal without getting ripped off.
You know, so extreme focus, uh, not knowing entirely what you're doing, but focused on getting that job done or that that task accomplished and for that particular experience. Every day [00:59:00] is something new. And, hey, we saw whales at 10 o'clock and, and in the afternoon we saw dolphins, and then we saw this ship, and tomorrow it's a brand new day.
There's new stuff and there's a new port, and there's, it's nonstop. I, I don't know how kids can survive for 104 days without sleep. But somehow they manage the intensity and, and they're loving every second of it. It, it's just a really great immersive experience. We demand a lot. And I think that's part of the thing with so much school, that that demand is low.
And kids, students, they want to learn quickly. They wanna learn a lot. They want a high demand environment and they rise to the challenge.
Cameron: And you've been privileged to go on over two dozen expeditions and you've visited over 125 [01:00:00] countries. And what have been some of your treasured learning, whether, I'm imagining you've had a few bizarre moments that have led to quite impactful learnings for yourself,
Ed: uh, quite a bit along the way.
And you certainly, when you're doing, uh. An expedition, an extreme encounter. You know, there's, there has to be a plan B or a plan C or a plan D. Things never work out as you plan. And so often the, the difficulties you encounter are not external, but they're internal to the group. The group dynamics, people get up uptight and things don't work, and things fall apart.
And I think you have to be mentally prepared to deal with each of those, those challenges, not, not that it's fundamentally different than life every day, but it's just, uh, a slightly higher level. If you're in the Antarctic, [01:01:00] there are things that, solutions that, that aren't available to you, they're problems that you have not encountered before.
And, and of course, as always, the biggest learning is what you learn about yourself. That, Hey, I can do this. I, I wasn't sure. But I found out I, I can do it and I can do it reasonably well and, or maybe better than that. Um, so there's always learning at several different levels and there's that exhilaration of, wow, we just did this big thing.
We just sailed a small boat across the Pacific Ocean, or we just did the scuba dive and it was really cool, but we made a underwater video or, or, you know, 19 other things. Satisfaction That pleasure is so wonderful. So immeasurably positive for you. You know, I, I, I, I work out seven days a week and part of the, I do it because I believe in [01:02:00] it, but I also do it because if that phone call comes.
Can you be in South America next week? Can you join this? Can you do that? Can you, you know, we're, we're doing a 15 mile hike next week, or we're doing the whatever. I want to be able to say, I'm ready. And, and that's kind of the way I live my life. I'm ready to go. Let's, let's get the next thing going.
Cameron: Great attitude and preparing in the background so we can be ready is so, so important.
And what out of your expeditions have been, uh, the most memorable for you?
Ed: Well, the spending a winter in the Antarctic was certainly the most memorable. It, it had the most differences from any other experience I've had, just getting off the airplane and stepping outside the airplane coming from Christchurch, landing in early August, right in the middle of the winter.
And it's 40 below. And all I can think about is getting back on [01:03:00] that airplane and going back to Warren Price Church. 'cause my hands hurt. Everything hurt. Uh, that, that whole experience taught me so much about what I was there to study, the ocean and the ice, but also about living with a small team that's out in the boondocks by itself and the, the inherent difficulties when things go awry.
And the necessity for me to step up and play a leadership role in when that really wasn't called for in the manifest in the, in the plan for the expedition. So again, it was learning and experience. And you wake up and you open the door to your tiny little GaN out on the frozen salt water, and you suck in that air that's 40 or 50 below and it burns your lungs.
And you look at that blue sky and you go, wow, I'm, I'm here. [01:04:00] This is unbelievable. And those moments are just to be treasured.
Cameron: I, I have to ask 'cause I'm a, an avid scuba diver myself, and it seems like we've, we've scuba dived in very similar paces from the Red Sea to Indonesia. Is there a, uh, a dive site or a place that you, that you treasure above all else?
We,
Ed: I, I've done a lot of, of diving in the Atlantic and I love it, and it's not as colorful or rich as other places, but, but there's some of the outer islands of The Bahamas that are just comfortable. They're putting on a worn pair of slippers onto my feet on a core cold morning. It just feels good. I know everybody there.
Uh, I know where to look for the animals. I, I pretty much can anticipate what's gonna happen. But for excitement, the Coral Triangle is so incredibly [01:05:00] beautiful and we have only touched the. The surface. We've done some muck diving and lambay straight, and we've done some other diving in Indonesia and of course great, great barrier reef, but that coral triangle, I, I don't have a lot of time left to dive.
I'm most dive operators won't take somebody my age. So we, we've gotta get our last dives in pretty quickly and I'm hoping that will include some diving, either off Papua or not. Papua off New Guinea, Western New Guinea, Raja Ampa, or further East Spice Islands. I, we almost went there a couple years ago and got canceled the last second there.
But there's so many beautiful places, underwater and above water to see. You gotta get going, you gotta make some plans and you gotta step out that front door. And whether you get where you intend to or not in some cases doesn't really matter. You, you've gotten someplace new and you've [01:06:00] enjoyed a new experience.
And, and that's as far as I know, that's what we have in life. Uh, so gotta go do it.
Cameron: Before we sign off today, what book has changed your life or had the biggest impact on you?
Ed: The one book that jumps out at me is, uh, by Nason, the Arctic Explorer, uh, who also 1922, won the Nobel Peace Prize. A phenomenal man. And if you're not familiar with the Fija Nason, the, the Norwegian Explorer, what an incredible life he led.
And he fundamentally changed our concept of this planet that, that we live on through his expedition. And the book is farthest North and, and the guy's absolutely crazy. [01:07:00] Very, very smart, very, very tough physically, and just a very inspiring book that, that once I read that I had to read all the other polar explorers.
But, but Sson is the dean, he's the guy, he's the man. And, and we don't have enough of those people in the world. But Nason was the dude and I salute him and I'm delighted that years ago I read his books.
Cameron: Interesting. I've, uh, I'll go look it up. Well, thank you very much, ed Sobe, thank you very much for joining us and thank you very much for your time,
Ed: Cameron, it's been my pleasure.
Thank you for inviting me, flow
Cameron: unleashed as we wrap up this incredible conversation with Dr. Ed sobe. I'm struck by the sheer depth of his passion for innovation and his remarkable journey of exploration from writing over 30 books to teaching science teachers across the globe. Ed has [01:08:00] demonstrated that innovation is not just a skill, but a mindset.
One, grounded in curiosity, experimentation, and a drive to empower others. Throughout our discussion, three essential takeaways emerge for me. Firstly, innovation begins with action. Ed's advocacy for hands-on learning and doing science reminds us that real breakthroughs come up from thinking alone, but from rolling up our sleeves and diving into the process, whether it's testing new ideas, prototyping, or challenging conventional wisdom, innovation starts with experimentation and embracing the messy middle.
Secondly, stay adaptable and curious. Even during the COVID-19 pandemic, it found ways to create and innovate proving that adaptability is at the heart of sustained success. When the world changes, as it always [01:09:00] does, those who continue learning and pivoting will stay ahead of the curve. And lastly, empowerment fuels innovation.
Through his work with teachers and inventors, ed has shown the importance of creating spaces where individuals feel supported to explore and fail. Empowering others to innovate, whether in the classroom boardrooms or workshops, leads to breakthroughs that no single person can achieve alone. In closing, this conversation reminded me that whilst Harvard Business School teachers design thinking principles, using a four phase innovation framework could clarify, ideate, develop, and implement innovation isn't just about following a rigid framework.
I. But cu but cultivating a mindset that values curiosity, resilience, and collaboration. By doing so, [01:10:00] we create opportunities to adapt, grow, and make a lasting impact. So as you reflect on today's episodes, think about how you can infuse this innovative mindset into your own work and life. Start small, take risks, and don't shy away from failure, because as Ed's extraordinary career has shown us, the road to innovation is often paved with detours and discoveries.
Thanks for tuning in. And remember, true innovation happens when we dare to think differently and act boldly.
Ah. Cut that last sentence.[01:11:00]
Thanks for tuning in. If you've liked what you've heard, please subscribe and the next episode will drop into the device that you're listening this to. If you want to hear more about Ed Sobe, please see the show notes.
Thank you for listening to Flow Unleashed. If you enjoyed listening, please subscribe to get notified when our next episode drops. The more people that subscribe, the better I can make the show for you. Equally, please leave a review. Your review will go a long way to helping others find this pot. Until the next time, thank you for listening to Flow [01:12:00] Unleashed.