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Jason Campbell

S2 EP9: Do you Cringe when Faced with Sales? How to Overcome the Fear of Selling Yourself with Jason Campbell

S2 EP9: Do you Cringe when Faced with Sales? How to Overcome the Fear of Selling Yourself with Jason CampbellJason Campbell
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In this episode, author and successful podcaster, Jason Campbell, discusses the concept of 'selling with love'. He elaborates on how reaching a flow state can significantly enhance sales performance by enabling salespeople to operate effortlessly and creatively. Jason addresses common negative perceptions of sales, often rooted in past negative experiences, and provides insights on how to transform these mindsets. He emphasizes the importance of removing emotional baggage and understanding the buyer to sell effectively. Jason also touches on the meaning of sales as an energy exchange, the impact of shame and guilt blockages, and the benefits of selling products one believes in. Additionally, he discusses the role of goal-setting, continuous personal growth, and maintaining a positive mindset even during unproductive phases. The episode concludes with reflections on how applying these principles contributes to long-term success and aligns with the broader trend of conscious business.

ABOUT THE GUEST

Jason Campbell

Our next guest, Jason Campbell, author, public speaker, and podcast host of the Mindvalley Podcast, has spent a lot of his life examining deeper [00:04:00] aspects of sales and why many of us have an aversion to it. In his book, selling With Love, he talks about the book Being a manifesto for a better way to sell that aligns with your values and can feel amazing.

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Jason Campbell

SHOW NOTES / RESOURCES

00:00 Introduction and Greetings
04:42 The Concept of Selling with Love
04:55 Flow States in Sales
05:54 Overcoming Negative Sales Experiences
08:24 Clearing Sales Blockages
12:05 Reframing Sales and Emotions
12:55 Defining Sales and Emotional Impact
16:35 The Importance of Sales Processes
20:12 Selling with Love in Challenging Situations
28:36 Leadership and Conscious Business
34:17 Personal Growth and Success
42:38 Conclusion and Farewell

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TRANSCRIPT

Cameron: [00:00:00] Flow unleashed. Unleashed, unleashed.
Have you ever gone to sell your service or business and felt icky about it? You know you have to do it, but struggle to do it with passion and confidence. Mainly because you just don't like selling. Well, today we unpack why that is and discuss a whole new approach to the way we sell.
Worthy scientist and high performance coach to multiple world champions. In this show, we unpack key insights on specific topics so that you are kept up to date with the latest science and practice of human performance.[00:01:00]
Today we're tackling a topic that often gets a bad rap. Sales. Yes, you heard that right? Sales. Far from being just a profession, sales is as old as civilization itself and plays a vital role in personal and professional growth. In fact, mastering sales skills can be a powerful step forward to achieving personal, professional, and financial freedom.
But let's be honest, sales isn't just misunderstood by beg Grandle customers. It's often misunderstood by each one of us. And whether you're a business owner, pitching to customers, an entrepreneur, raising capital, an elite athlete, negotiating brand deals, or just selling yourself in a job interview, the essence of sales touches us all.
Yeah, myths and [00:02:00] stereotypes persist. Have you ever heard someone say, I can't be a salesperson. I don't have the gift of the gap. Or salespeople are just smooth talkers. You can sell anything to anyone. It's no wonder sales is often misunderstood, but narratives like these, swelling around the age old mistrust of the secondhand car sales person.
However, let's pause to think about this. Sales is at the heart of progress. Without sales, businesses wouldn't thrive. Without salespeople, many of the products and services we rely on daily wouldn't reach us. Think about it. Aren't we all engaged in sales in one way or another? Proving your worth in a job interview, making your case in a marriage proposal, or even persuading your kids to study more or watch less tv or put their shoes in the cupboard.
All of these are forms of selling, negotiating [00:03:00] our agendas with others. At its core, successful sales isn't about pushing a product or closing a deal. It's about solving problems and creating value. Customers want solutions and understanding their needs is key to making meaningful connections. Yet many people shy away from sales, afraid of rejection or being, being uncomfortable, aligning themselves with a product or service.
There's a wealth of advice out there for anyone looking to refine their sales skills, such as, listen more, talk less. Know your products and your industry inside out. Take initiative, be proactive. Don't fear rejection. It's part of the process. Be timely, be a team player, and so forth. But most of this misses the point as to why people don't do a good job selling.
Our next guest, Jason Campbell, author, public speaker, and podcast host of the Mindvalley Podcast, has spent a lot of his life examining deeper [00:04:00] aspects of sales and why many of us have an aversion to it. In his book, selling With Love, he talks about the book Being a manifesto for a better way to sell that aligns with your values and can feel amazing.
Flow unleashed. Unleashed. This chat I had with Jason has been remastered from several years ago, so audio quality may not be the same as usual. Welcome to the show, Jason Cameron,
Jason: it's a pleasure to be here. Thanks for having me.
Cameron: My pleasure. Excited to chat to you. 'cause sales is a really interesting topic where ordinarily people's connotations with sales is not necessarily love.
Let's start with, tell us more about selling with love and what does that mean to you?
Jason: Perfect. Well, this is the title of the upcoming book, and so this is something I've been doing a lot of research on. It's something that I'm very passionate about speaking and the fact that speaking for people at the Flow Center, obviously you speak about what happens when you're in [00:05:00] those flow states.
Things seem to be effortless and you seem to be able to do it, be in a massive creative state. And if you think about the sales process. It's, there's usually somebody who's doing an activity where they need to sell, they need to do maybe a repetitive task. They need to communicate with people. They need to reach out to new people.
They need to be quick with their mind, quick on their feed, and be able to move those sales to go forward. Flow states is very much something that you need to get into if you wanna be very successful in sales. And so I wanted to add that because. I think it's very relevant for anybody who might be listening to this in a sales role, wanting to pair that with a flow state.
You, you can tell the ones that are great salespeople because they get into that state where it's like they're unstoppable. They'd be able to speak a language that seems to flow from the tip of their tongue. They don't hesitate to make a call or to reach out to new people. You become relentless and very enthusiastic, and that quality is something you really want in a successful salesperson, whether that's yourself or a team that you wanna train.
Why is it that most people might not associate sales with a flow state or may not have [00:06:00] even been in a flow state when it comes to being as a person who's doing sales is because if you want to get to that level, you need to take away the barriers that would stop you from getting there. We even spoke yourself, Cameron, how you had to retrain yourself and your views in sales.
And I think most of us have a very limited view of sales where we see the negative experiences we've had in the past. This could be from that used car salesman that we usually stereotype as the typical salesperson. Or we hear these stories from like the Wolf of Wall Street, taking millions from people and taking advantage of them.
You know, the reputation of people that are brokers in in, in New York or real estate agents. There are so many of these typical sales trades. Now we definitely pay notice to the times that we've had a negative experience, and this is where a lot of our beliefs are formed, is that where we focus on the things that are negative is really a survival mechanism.
If I would pay as much attention to every successful sale, I'd be overwhelmed with the amount of interactions that I've had where I've bought a coffee, it was a pleasant experience, or I've bought a product. Like recently, I've [00:07:00] just had a friend of mine bring me a beautiful new Mac. Book, uh, with the M1 gip, which I had just released at the time and was super excited.
This was a beautiful purchase experience. Yet I'm not gonna recall this when I'm thinking about a salesperson, I'm gonna remember the time that I got taken advantage of, or the person that, you know, took me out for, for a bad deal and our survival mechanisms sets out these warnings in place saying, Hey, watch out.
Salespeople can take advantage of you. And they truly can. I mean. They are professionals in their field, and especially when we're young, we don't know any better, which is why the used car salesman is such a traditional example, because that ends up being one of the major purchases we usually do at a young age.
And because you're ill-equipped to handle someone who has professional processes in sales, you might end up with a negative experience. Now, for us to be able to get in a flow state, for us to be able to sell from a place of love, if you have all of those baggages in place, your memories around these negative experiences is making you realize that, whoa.
If I become a salesperson, I'm gonna become like that [00:08:00] person that took advantage of me, that left me with a negative impression. I don't want to be like that. And so if your identity resists being a salesperson because you remember those negative impressions, then God forbid you put, you get put into a sales role and then you'll feel miserable every day of you need to show up to work.
And so there's a lot of work to be done in the clearing before you can even step into love. And if you like Cameron, I could walk people through some of the ways you can get rid of that. Yeah, go for it. Well, if you're having those kinds of blocks, the first thing to understand is a bad salesperson is typically either not realizing that what they're doing is bad.
They haven't grown up to the level of taking responsibility for the sales they make, but also it might just be a question that they are selling from a place of desperation and need. See when times are tough, we compromise on our values. If you have to put money on the table, food on the table, some of the people that are in the sales positions that might not be as glamorous, might not be as income high generating, and you're being put into that scenario, they'll find themselves doing actions and [00:09:00] activities that fall out of integrity.
And what I would urge for people who are listening to this who still remember that negative experience with a salesperson that you're holding a grudge maybe against them, is realizing that you can approach this situation with a level of understanding, maybe a level of compassion that salesperson has long forgotten about you and.
The fact is the karma's gonna come back to get them and they don't feel good needing to take advantage of other people. Nobody feels good taking advantage of other people and they're, it's gonna come back to bite you if you are finding yourself in those behaviors. So here's what's happening. That salesperson has probably forgotten about your specific example.
Maybe they've healed, maybe they've grown up, and we would hope so, but more than likely, they're just going about their day and they're gonna have their lesson come their way. The problem is you remember, you hold onto it, and that would be all fine if it was just about that experience, but you replicate that feeling in every time you become the seller and you resist it.
So if you approach. That experience with a level of understanding, a level of compassion, and realize that hey, they were doing their best. [00:10:00] It wasn't personal to me. And if I keep holding onto this grudge, I'll be holding myself back from trying to get a promotion at my job and realizing I need to sell myself to be able to get my company to raise money and realize I need to sell the ideas of the company to go out there and be the salesperson selling a service or a product, realizing I'm, I'm not serving the world in a better place.
So this is one of them. Another one that I usually bring up, Cameron, that could be more cultural as well as childhood behaviors, is if ever you were in a strict family, that might not be so abundant, or at least we're putting rules in place where they didn't necessarily were able to buy. What is it that next gaming console when we were kids, like for me it was the PlayStation.
And as kids we think, yeah, we're natural salespeople, right? Like kids are relentless. We even say they're shameless. Do you have any kids, Cameron?
Cameron: See?
Jason: Yeah. Yeah. So when they want something, do they persist and do they ask many times? Yes. So the kids naturally know that they can follow up, they can continue asking a no means a yes maybe in the future, and they'll keep being persistent.
[00:11:00] But at some point as parents, you would say, Hey, no means no. Stop asking. That could be, if they're keeping saying, I want the PlayStation, please, please, please, please, please. And then it can, it gets annoying. So they're not really good salespeople. The kids just don't know any better. They're not taking care of understanding the needs of the person that they're selling to with, you know, they wanna get a PlayStation.
Now they're saying, maybe I could talk to them about how we could balance the budgets over the next few months, and I could cut down on these expenses so I can get what I want. No, they don't care. They just ask relentlessly. And so at some point, as a parent, you have to say no means no, but in belief that could be formed from that interaction.
Is if I persist and follow up too much, I get rejected and I feel the pain and mom and dad don't love me. Like all these childhood belief that comes around selling means like, oh wow, you need to be careful. Which is no surprise that most people don't follow up more than three times with a prospect when most of the sales happen after four follow-ups and more, because that will be a block that we neurologically have from our childhood to not want to follow up too many times because we know it really leads to pain [00:12:00] if we haven't cleared it.
Does this make sense?
Cameron: Yeah, sure. So there's a sense of reframing our idea of what sales is, trying to detach our past connotations with sales and. Perhaps a, a bad experience with a salesperson, having a reflection of our experience of what sales could be in the moment, and removing that emotional past attachment to the process of sales.
So we're not identifying that sales process with that person or with that past experience or with our identity, and being able to split that up will allow us to communicate more effectively and look at the exchange going on. So what are the common emotions you see that we need to overcome, and how would you reframe sales?
How? How would you define sales?
Jason: So here's the thing I, I love focusing on this first part. Like in the book I speak about the four [00:13:00] levels of emotions that happen in a sales transaction. The way I define sales is simple. It's an energy exchange between conscious beings, and so the energy is basically everything.
Money stored energy. Time is active energy. The goods in service took energy to create, but then the energy in motion, the emotion is really what makes or break a sale to leave you with a good feeling to leave the buyer with a good feeling or a bad feeling, depending on what energy you chose to use in the process.
So here what I was talking about is what I call SGBs or shame, guilt blockages. And when you clear this, then it opens you up to this possibility of selling with love and to get people, you know, to go right to the root here, like how do you sell with love? It's very simple to me. I say if you get to love the impact of what you do in the sale, like when you know that when you make that sale, you're gonna give them so much more than what you ask in return.
You're gonna be selling from a place of love. And if you know the impact of it, you can get clear on that. Like what happens to the buyer when they buy? What problems did you actually solve? How much of that [00:14:00] problem has been relieved and how much is that worth to them in their lives? Then you can start realizing that, hey, this is worth selling and I should put my energy behind it.
So I tell people, get in love with the impact of the sale that happens. And once you've done that, you can even expand it. Because if I sell to you, Cameron, such as I wanna sell you a course on selling. Well, to me, I can think about your direct impact. I could say, well, you know, you're gonna be able to increase your sales.
You're gonna be able to maximize your revenue, maximize your profit, and grow the business. But I can start expanding that impact circle and saying, yeah, but you're also gonna be able to, with the higher profit margins, with more sales, you're gonna be able to pay your staff more. You're gonna be able to hire more people, which is gonna allow the economy to work better within your area.
Because now more people have more jobs that pay even more. And I can even take it a step further. I can be like, wow, if more people get to discover about the flow states and how they can use that to maximize their productivity, maximize their happiness, and truly be able to live life to their fullest while making a difference, then the more sales that you make, that means I'm making the world a better place with every single [00:15:00] person that you touch through the business activities that you make, then yes, I do want to teach you how to sell.
I want you to maximize your sales because I understand the benefit it's gonna create to the world. And here lies a clue and I tell people to sell from love is try to expand that circle of caring, that that impact that you make goes beyond the buyer and the more clear you get on all those, you start getting so much material you can use in your marketing and in your sales stock as to why you care about selling them.
'cause people don't wanna buy until they know why you care. When you get clear on the impact, you can describe that to them very clearly and say, here's why I care about selling you right now. This is why I'm being persistent. This is why I think this is truly the best thing I can offer to you. And now you have an in to do business much more than a commodity type of transaction where nobody cares.
And this process, you get to care a lot.
Cameron: And in some of your articles, you talk about the sales system. And counteracting those silent killers, [00:16:00] like allaying customer's fears and minimizing risks. And I guess there's a protocol and a process that really helps the structure of the sale to occur or expediate the sales process.
And once that all becomes second nature within the individual, we, we have embodied knowledge around our sales process and how to actually make a sale. Do you see that as being all integral to that flow experience, or do you feel that we need to have that conscious awareness in order to apply that structure?
Jason: Well, it's, it's very interesting. It's kind of like, can you be in a flow state when you snowboard? So I used to snowboard a lot when I was younger and when I started snowboarding, I could start riding and at first it was a lot of struggle. I'd be falling down all the time, so I can't say I was hitting the flow states very often and maybe I, I never really did.
I ended up breaking my arm once and I even broke my pelvis on a jump when I started the year. And this was kind of the fact that for [00:17:00] me to get into a flow state, because I think of the times I was in flow state while snowboarding, it's like I'm carving down the hill so perfectly, I'm going at an accelerated pace.
Everything just works. Even this one time I remember just floating off a jump and doing a 360 landing and it, I didn't even put thought into it. It was beautiful. There was a precursor to that, which was, I had repetition, I had training, I had practice, right? And those elements were what allowed me to get to a space where I could con become unconsciously competent, where I could just start writing without needing to think about it.
And so when you think about these sales processes that you can do, because you can pick up a book on with a closer survival guide, how to close more deals, you can go and build online funnels. You can understand what scripts to follow. Like for example, one of my first sales jobs was being on the. Phone and selling on the phone.
And I had this to read a script. Okay. And the first times I would read the scripts, it's interesting because here I have this system that's supposed to work. The first times I'm reading it, I'm like, oh, I'm choppy, I'm nervous, I'm shaking. I mean, I even remember the first time I had to [00:18:00] pick up the phone and make a call.
I just went, hi, this is Jason from a b, c real estate. I'm just calling you back because you re, you requested a list of properties and I want to let you know I'll email you in the next 24 hours. Is that okay person's? Yep. Thanks. Bye. Hangs up on me and I'm like, oh my God, this sucks. I don't like it. I'm nervous.
This is gonna be like a telemarketer. Then the, my boss walks in, he sees me. I'm all sweaty. What's wrong? I'm like, the person hung up on me. I had a script. I only said one line, and they hung up. He's like, I, I swear this doesn't work like this. I'm like, I think you're lying. He's, I'm not. Try it, give it more practice.
So I did it again. This, the next call. Pretty bad call after that, pretty bad. But then suddenly I got to a point. Where I got into the flow. Then I started realizing that, hey, this works. Then I was trying to, I could predict the people's action and their responses and I had some practices and cues, and I became unconsciously competent again.
And I thought that was a very fascinating state to get into. So when you ask the question, does the flow state overrule the processes? 'cause it directs you into a certain methodology, I think you actually need to have a little level of trust if you're [00:19:00] following the right processes, you need to practice this enough and then realize that.
Hey, this does work. You can get into the flow state because that predictability comes in. Your responses come automatically. But there was even a funny thing that would happen, Cameron, because when I'd get into flow states, then I'd see it working. Then I'd feel overconfident. I'd start thinking, I don't need the script anymore, and I'd start doing it in my natural flow.
And the same thing happened every single time that happened. My sales conversion would go down. I'd say I need to go back to the script. I would go back to the script and then I would get back in a flow state on that script, and that's when the performance would go really high. So I think these protocols and processes are critical to getting you into the flow state because you don't wanna be thinking about all the little ifs and buts.
You wanna be able to be programmed with the most effective things, trust it, train it, replicate it, and scale it. Because sometimes sales they say is a game of numbers. But they need to be performed at a set certain level of energy, and if you can operate from a place of love, you'll hit that flow state and then you'll see you can execute that process effectively.[00:20:00]
Cameron: Hmm. Makes sense. And we can cultivate clear rules and task goals. That certainly helps. I'm wondering, in this concept of selling with love. What about the situation in which the sale doesn't feel right? Perhaps we don't think it's the perfect fit for the individual, but we really need the sale, or there's pressure from above to make the sale.
The company needs the sale, the business needs the sale. But deep down, perhaps we know not to push it for the entrepreneur or the sales person or the business owner who. Really needs that sale in the moment, but thinks about your concept of selling with love. What's your suggestion to them?
Jason: Yeah, it's a very powerful question to ask and one that we are always gonna ask ourselves because the enemy of selling with love is the lack of abundance.
I. So if everybody's abundant, right? Let's say you have a thousand leads that are knocking at your door and you get [00:21:00] to pick and choose the ones you wanna do business with, then you'll pick and choose the ones that you know you can provide the most value. That's an ideal situation and not the reality of the world.
Uh, every time, especially in 2020 when a lot of businesses are operating in a survival mode. So just like I explained at the beginning, how we have some of these negative experiences with salespeople and how we have to have a level of understanding. This is where you have to have a bit of compassion with yourself and understanding that you will sell at the level of abundance that you have.
If things like food needs to get put on the table, it's very hard to step into a level where you can be very conscious of your actions and be able to apply this model fully. But I can tell you one thing. The more people apply a model of selling with love, it seems to actually bring all the long-term benefits and abundance to actually lift the tide for everybody else.
Like the more companies can choose, have courage to be able to step into selling from a place of love, they'll realize that they create more abundance for themselves and for the buyers they sell to, and become an example for everybody else to be reminded that [00:22:00] this is the ultimate way of selling. Now, yes, you can have somebody that walks through the door and if you know that what you're gonna offer them is less than what you're asking in return, what is that gonna result in?
You're gonna have a customer that's gonna complain. You're gonna have a customer that's not satisfied. You have a customer that's gonna leave a review of telling you how the company is bad. And so sometimes, yeah, you feel like you're gonna be able, you need to squeeze that sail for that moment, but instead, you should be able to step back and realize, why do I feel that I need to sell to this person when I know they're not the fit?
I would say there's one problem or two here. The first one is, are you clear? I. On who the client is or the buyer is, which actually in my model is the second love of selling, which is love the buyer and to love the buyer. The true way to show love is to understand them. So how clear are you on who the target buyer is and how much value do you actually provide to them?
So you can price accordingly and you can market it accordingly. So that. What they find is that it's, it looks like it's worth more than the price. So they buy it and it gives them more value than they even [00:23:00] expected it. So it makes them very happy of buying. And if you can nail who that type of customer is, then you can focus your efforts not on trying to squeeze the sale of the one that might not be great, but you can work on attracting the largest amount of that.
The target market that you know you can sell to because the efforts and the headaches you're gonna get from that one sale that isn't gonna be worth it is taking away your energy. That what would happen if you'd focus to the 10 people that would get all the value from it and then really make the transformation.
Now, the other side of this is perhaps your product isn't at the level that it needs to be for you to be confident about selling it, which is very interesting. This is actually the third reason why somebody would have blockages and shame around selling is that the product that you sell is crap. Let's say you're selling product that is crap.
Here's the deal. You can fake it till you make it, which is some of the wisdom that gets brought out there, but. Here's, you're, you're gonna be fighting an uphill battle on every sale. It's never gonna feel good to sell it, because every time you sell it, you know you're screwing people over. Now imagine being able [00:24:00] to, you need to fight a lot of negative resistance, and even the buyer's gonna feel your energy.
You need to brainwash yourself to sell it, and it's just gonna cost you something in the long term. Like I've found myself selling a product I wasn't proud of when I was younger. That came back to bite me. Matter of fact, that even draw me into some substance abuse like alcohol and wanting to numb myself.
And you see a lot of people that are salespeople have an addiction tendency because you sometimes don't want to take the responsibility of the sales that you've made. But again, if you just took a different type of approach with the product, which is not fake it till you make it instead. Fix it. Don't fake it.
Just fix the product. Find out what's wrong with it. Go and work at it. And if you can have these kinds of guarantees in place, like money back guarantee, that will force you to improve the product quality and try to push that forward. If you're an employee within a company that ultimately sells a product that you know is subpar and the company has no intentions and values of making it a great product, I would urge you to consider working for a different company because there is no shortages of companies that are looking for good salespeople, that are working on their talents, that are [00:25:00] qualified and actually care.
A caring salesperson that is enthusiastic is probably the best asset you can bring into a company. And if you decide to hold yourself to a higher standard, then you can find those places to work for. You can sell the kinds of products that make you really excited about selling 'em. But if you are the entrepreneur, if you work on understanding the client, and the third love of selling is actually love the product.
So fix the product so you can love it when you sell it, you'll not only be able to find yourself being able to get over that hurdle of saying, Hey, I, I don't, I don't wanna make sales to someone that I know won't get value. Instead, I'll make the product better and I'll sell to the right person. You'll also realize that because you've done these efforts and gotten clear on that, you can attract the better salespeople.
You're gonna be able to market better, and you're gonna get better reviews, better referrals, and it'll get the business to grow much more in the process than trying to work on that low value, low return, hard headache type of customer. And so, of course I say this because in the long term, we all know this is the answer.
During hard times, we might compromise on that and give yourself a bit of forgiveness, because [00:26:00] sometimes it can be. Unclear on how much you understand the customer, and you can take the risk if you're ready to take the responsibility. You're doing your best every time,
Cameron: and I guess we can always leave the company, but to be able to say no in the moment and follow that concept of selling with love, I imagine the culture of that company or the culture of that sales team is really important to be able to support that.
Jason: There's a culture that needs to be in place and there's a benefit that needs to be shown for the company to embrace that culture. But to talk to your example, I a No is a powerful thing to do If you're a salesperson. Imagine you're in interaction with somebody. And we'll use an example here, such as if I was being a consultant to you and giving you some sales advice and I'm selling this for $10,000, I look at the revenue numbers, I look at the problems you have, and imagine that in the, towards the end of the sales process, I say, Cameron, you know, I look at these numbers and I.
I don't think we should do business together. I think at [00:27:00] my price point, you won't get the kind of value that you should expect to get from working with someone like me, but I'd love for you to come back maybe in three months if you've had some changes in revenue numbers and hired two more salesperson, then I know I'll be able to deliver more value.
Like a person who hears that from the salesperson will immediately acknowledge one thing you care. That's a powerful thing to have as a report established. So sometimes they talk about how can you maximize your sales to go from like 3% to 5%. But the question I love to ask as well is, what are you doing with the 95 to 97% of the people who don't buy?
Will they ever buy from you again in the future because you've decided to treat them with dignity, care and love, even if they didn't buy? Or are you trying to maximize that conversion rate by 2%, but alienating the other 96 or 95? I think one of them becomes very obvious that will lead to the growth of a business long term.
Cameron: Are you looking to improve your performance, [00:28:00] stress less and flow more? Do you want to improve the human performance in your organization or team? I. If so, we are here to help our team of experts specialize in helping individuals and businesses integrate a high performance practice and culture. So if you want to take your performance to the next level, or integrate the lessons and skills you hear on this pod into your leaders and teams, go to flow center.org today.
The official site of flow training and flow coaching.
So just moving onto you and your role as a podcast host, you've had a whole range of fascinating conversations. Which ones stand out to you? What messages have stayed in your memory? I.
Jason: Well, that's a very interesting question, and depending on how we, you asked this question and there's a few things that come up.
There's the [00:29:00] recency effects. So there's some of the latest interviews that I've done not too long ago that still resonate in my mind right now. I. One of the biggest things when I talk about leadership, there's a ton of people that I bring forward to talk about leadership and the new age of leadership, which is not command and control, but it's very collaborate and coach.
This is the big thing that I find is very interesting from the people I interview. The trend is the same across the board is like when you lead with this methodology of caring and loving seems to be permeated across every discipline in leadership care and love. For your team, and you'll see you'll unlock their abilities and grow and make an impact.
I even have a lot that come and speak about marketing and sales, and they're like. When you know that what you're doing is the world of service and a public good, then be relentless on how you sell because you've done the work that you're gonna be generating the business That really gives value to people, and you need to acknowledge that selling is a powerful way to do that.
When I speak about productivity, people are like. Do you have enough care and love to know that you should be managing your time, that you can have [00:30:00] systems in place that enable you to be more effective. And if you take the time to realize that you're worth it, and with the additional time that you have, you can do more important, amazing things and start applying these principles.
Those are the. Brent, like I see this as a common thread and I, I can also realize that for the people I've interviewed that spoke about the future of work with the ai, the machine learning, the transformation that's happening is at the core of it, human creativity and this aspect of our humanity. I. Is becoming the most precious asset within companies because your physical labor is being changed away by robots.
Your intellectual capacities and data processing is also being taken away by machines. What's left? It's our essence of humanity and the more human we can be in the workplace is one of the trends that I'm seeing and that people are speaking about the more effective in your growth and the way to lead others and becomes all about connecting with other people.
So I find those are beautiful trends to see and gets me very excited about the future.
Cameron: Hmm. Many of those messages seem to echo with your model around selling with [00:31:00] love and they, generally speaking, I also see growth towards conscious business. What chicks, high call, good business where we seem to collaborate and coach rather than use the stick and carrot approach to leadership.
And in certain industries, young industries, it's more rife and readily available. However, in other industries. Leadership styles are often so entrenched. They're longstanding, and it can take a lot for it to change and it can often seem like a, a big leap. So what are some of the steps that you would suggest for people looking to take that leap?
Jason: Yeah, so you're speaking about some of the industries that seem to move a little slower than the ones that seem to be quite innovative. It's interesting because you're gonna see that the effectiveness of the companies that can practice this is going to be so much higher than the [00:32:00] legacy businesses.
Like we've already seen massive destruct disruptions happen across industries where they're completely blindsided by a newcomer. Who can I. Navigate faster, adapt to change faster. And the chase, the, the pace of change is accelerating more and more. And so the more that when you have these processes of command and conquer afraid to speak up, like one of the most fascinating conversations I've had, oh my God, I forget his name.
And that would be so unfortunate for me to forget his name because he's a brilliant author. We talk about the four levels of psychological safety, and when he spoke about this is how. If you don't have psychological safety in the team, his name is Timothy R. Clark. Timothy R. Clark wrote the book, the Four Stages of Psychological Safety.
I interviewed him and when you're talking about command and conquer, right? People don't speak up. People don't feel psychologically safe. And so whatever the senior leader sees, wants and orders to be done is what will be done. So when the ideas from the people from the frontline [00:33:00] isn't communicated back to the top leadership, that's when you have a Netflix that comes up and swipes out a blockbuster.
That's how you see Amazon being able to. I pretty much nominate the world now because people hadn't adjusted to the online as quickly and as bullishly as they were capable to. So I think if you are in a structure that's maybe a bit more archaic, it's gonna be disruption or die. It might be hard for you to communicate that with the leadership team, but I think if we all focus on our own personal development, our own personal growth, you'll be va creating, like leveling up your level of value that you provide as an employee.
To a point where you're gonna be able to be more courageous about speaking up and indicating to the leaders that this change needs to happen or the company is gonna be in trouble. And you'll also be able to keep a foot out the door and become a very valuable asset for any other company that is going to get this, that is going to treat you better, that's going to help you, you know, grow and continue to grow.
But the self-responsibility you have to take is. You continue to grow, you continue to make yourself the most valuable asset in [00:34:00] whatever it is that you do. So you can have that luxury, you can have that good, and you can have that confidence of speaking up within the organization that might not be making those changes.
So you can actually indicate them, support them, and if they don't want to listen, you're gonna have other options too.
Cameron: Interesting. And you're a successful individual and I, I don't mean that in terms of financial security, but you've developed a life where you've been able to do what you want to do.
You've aligned yourself with what you love, what your passions are, what's bubbling in your heart, and you've been able to turn that into a productive business. What have been your three pillars towards turning your. Passions into profit.
Jason: Three pillars for that. So I mean. I, it was funny, I was interviewing a man this morning. His name was Eric Kalman, which his [00:35:00] initials Equal Man e Kalman, which I, he, he goes by the superhero name called Equal Man, but he's a fantastic public speaker and he was saying how everybody has a superpower and he was asking me about my superpower, and I think that's a great place to start.
One of the pillars that I think are really strong in my own personality is my tendency to be. Very action oriented. I think whenever I get a thought, I'm very quick to take action on it, which has gotten me in trouble probably more times than the times it's guide me in the right direction. But through every trouble I've went through, there was always something I could learn.
Absorb and then be better in the next action that I take. I think in today's world, with the access to information and the safety protocols that are in place by like any country that we're a part of, there's sometimes a lot more leniency towards taking risks and being able to take action to go and find those learnings in the process.
So one of my pillars, like I think of the times that on the drop of a dime, you know, I, I went to visit. The Mindvalley office in Kuala Lumpur, this is back in 2013. When I did that, I just went with the intention of seeing the office. [00:36:00] 'cause they had one of Southeast Asia's most beautiful offices, and by the end of that tour of the office, the lady that gave me the tour said, Hey, you're pretty cool.
You should apply for a job here. And I went to the cafe downstairs to just work on my laptop and my former employer wrote an email saying, Hey, I need you to relocate back to Ottawa, Canada. Because we just want to work non remote now. We want everybody in the same office. So the action I took right from there is, well, why don't I send an application to Mindvalley and just see how that goes.
Well, lo and behold, I ended up being getting the job, and then I was able to go back to Ottawa, Canada to announce my resignation, to relocate the Kuala Lumpur and work there for seven years, which has been pivotal to where I am now. So I'd say orientation to action is a very strong pillar. The second one is humble enough to grow, like student mindset, like I'm always.
And, and this sometimes creeps up on me where I feel like I'm really smart, and that's a terrible, terrible thing to be in because you stop learning. The knowing is the opposite of learning. And so I always. I try to remind myself to be humble, to go back to reading a student, to [00:37:00] relearn things, realize there's so much I don't know.
And the more I play with that state, I'm able to be in a better learning, better growth stage. And when I do that, I get to discover new things. Realizing everything from five years ago made no sense to what I know now. And being in that persistent growth has just opened more and more opportunities and connect with more and more people and knowing more and more things to be able to take the actions on what are the things I truly.
Find is essential and fun for me to pursue as a lifestyle, as a career. And I think the third one I'll say, which is funny because I actually wrote an article a long time ago about how goal setting was nonsense. Because I didn't know any better. And that kind of refers to number two, that I decided to learn a bit better.
But I, I started setting North Stars and being more clear on goal setting. And what I mean by that is I can operate in the world kind of aimlessly and I would get away with a bias for action and a lot of growth. I can get away with doing some really cool things, but without a goal. I'm swimming around in the puddle and discovering things, but.
If I decide to [00:38:00] say I'm gonna go that way and make a conscious goal, like a vision of a kind of a North star that I want to pursue, then I can at least take that action and growth effort and direct it towards a funnel that actually leads me somewhere that I want to discover. And it was very interesting because initially I didn't wanna do that because I felt it would be trapping to set a goal if I wasn't sure it was gonna be the right one.
But what I quickly realized is you can set a strong goal, you can pursue it aggressively, and you can still change it because the growth and acceleration that comes from setting that goal and having that energy funneled in a direction provides so many more benefits than swimming around in the water until you feel you find the right one.
No. It never comes that way. I find you set a star, you travel that path and then realize the next path or the next step gets revealed to you. And there's no problem changing direction, even if it's in the opposite direction. But I find that it's rarely the case gonna be in the opposite direction. And if it is, then you've saved yourself a lot of time by going aggressively in that [00:39:00] direction and realizing that you can put X on it and go the other way.
So these would be the three pillars, I would say. Bias for action, continuous growth, and having a goal, vision orientation. North Star.
Cameron: Yeah. Three great pillars there. The last topic in terms of goals is an interesting one. I think it's important to add to create goals that are signposts that give us direction and focus as opposed to end posts that might add stress and anxiety and not very well research.
To work on a more personal level, what are some of the greatest challenges that you've faced? And how have you responded to them? What have you learned from them?
Jason: I have a lot of self-hate for the times I'm unproductive or not doing at the level that I know my capabilities can. And so there are times that I'll find myself in a low and I would actually beat myself up over it.
And what I've, what I've come to realize is that we operate quite [00:40:00] cyclically, like the lows. There's a lot of. Juice. There's a lot of goodness that can come from the times you're less productive, and if you can acknowledge that and embrace that and take it as a time of reflection and integration. I have an awareness now that there are times that I'm gonna be on a high and those are the times that I can get on the sales calls for the entire day in a flow state, as you would say, and just.
Get all of the productivity of a week done in a single day that is just outrageous. And people will be like, wow, you did all that in a day. And if I have another day of the week where I'm like, Hey, I'm highly distracted. I unfocused, I have a level of forgiveness and understanding for myself before I would be very strict and, uh, you know, kind of attacking myself.
But that doesn't do any good. I've come with a thought, and this was from reading a book called The Four Agreements, Don Miguel Louise, an amazing piece of literature. He speaks about, one of the agreements we should have is acknowledging that the only action we ever take is our best. So even if you're having some lows, realize that this can be the springboard for your next high.
That will bring you all the productivity and flow state that you're looking for. [00:41:00] That'll more than make up for the time that you decided to recharge. And if you frame it in that way of recharging, you can take some activities that are just gonna nurture you more, because the moment you start hating on yourself, you're just prolonging it and you're not helping anybody, not yourself, and not anybody else that's aligned to the impact you wanna make.
And so that would be the challenges that I face. And which, to be quite honest with you, Cameron is one that I'm in right now. I'm in the process of writing a book. I'm in the final stages of editing, and I feel like a, I should be moving faster, but I know that I'm just a flow state away of a massive leap in productivity.
And if I can take this time to do the things that bring me joy, such as doing interviews and being able to interact with people, still provide value in a different way. I know the moment that I. Get back into that state, I'll be able to do the output that I need. And I have that level of understanding and I'm very excited to have this book come out in a few months.
Cameron: Yeah, I imagine. I know that place all too well, where that wasted energy and self berating can lead to stagnation and stress and [00:42:00] whilst there's a purpose of perfection behind it, it's very wasteful. Well, good luck on finishing your book.
Is there a book or film that you feel has changed your life or had a huge impact?
Jason: The four hour Work Week by Tim Ferriss kicked me off on discovering a lot of this world of online, you know, red. Redefining my life to be remote first was really pivotal at the time. Not sure if it's as relevant now. I'm pretty sure it is.
Uh, and I absolutely loved it.
Cameron: Great stuff. Well, thank you very much for your time, Jason
Jason: Cameron, thank you so much for having me on the show and everybody listening. Thank you so much for tuning in.
Cameron: Flow Unleashed. Unleashed. This conversation with Jason truly reminded me how to reshape how I view sales.
It's easy to feel a tinge of selfishness when trying to sell something, whether it's a service, [00:43:00] an idea, or even ourselves. When we center that process in love, when genuinely caring about the person we're speaking to, it transforms the entire experience. Selling no longer feels like taking, it becomes about offering, helping and connecting.
Here's the thing, many of us don't even realize we're already in sales, whether it's on a date, advocating for a political cause, or persuading our kids to. Do something in the house. We're constantly pitching, convincing, and negotiating. The key is to shift our perspective. Sales isn't inherently bad. It's a way to add value, to connect dots that might otherwise remain unconnected.
Every conversation is an opportunity to solve a problem or help someone reach their goal more efficiently, effectively, or joyfully. And when we approach sales from this angle. It's okay to feel good about it. [00:44:00] Yes, there will always be sharks in the cells world. There will always be people trying to sell us things that we don't want.
But there are also dolphins, wells, and countless other wonderful creatures in the ocean. If selling still feels uncomfortable after this episode, take a moment to reflect on what you're selling. Are you truly helping someone? Are you making a difference in their life? If the answer is no, maybe it's time to align yourself with something you truly believe in.
Something that does make an impact to other people. Something that you can align yourself with, believe in and connect with. Every industry needs sales from space exploration to healthcare. Every dream or idea, idea needs someone to sell its vision to the world. So as you move forward. Choose to sell something you love, something that matters to you.
After all, [00:45:00] it's not just about what you're selling, it's about how it aligns with your values and how it makes a difference in the lives of others. And when you find that alignment, sales becomes a purpose, not just a transaction.
If you want to find out more about Jason Campbell, please see the show notes.
Thank you for listening to Flow Unleashed. If you enjoyed listening, please subscribe to get notified when our next episode drops. The more people that subscribe, the better I can make the show for you equally. Please leave a review. Your review will go a long way to helping others find this pot. Until the next time, thank you for listening to Flow Unleashed.

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