Sami Palmer

Cameron: Welcome to the show. Sammy.
Sami: Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure to be here.
Cameron: You reached extraordinary heights as a a young athlete in gymnastics. What do you remember most vividly from those early high performance years?
Sami: It's probably a few things that come to mind. Um, I remember it being fun, like I just enjoyed it. , I had an absolute love for the sport and so I just, I wanted to be there. All day, every day. Um, don't get me wrong, that it was hard. Gymnastics is one of those sports that, you know, you start young and you are in the, in the gym sort of 25, 30 hours by the age of nine 10, training before school.
But for me, I had this very. I guess an intrinsic drive just to keep doing more and keep learning and the adrenaline kept me there. I was very talented, which is lucky. But I embraced it and I think I took all the opportunities. Um, my first international event, I was nine years old, so I hopped on a plane over to Russia, to where my coach was from and did a competition over there.
And that was a, a beak. Wake up moment for me, I think, um, you know, I trained in a, a very big gym, a great environment that was, you know, we had heating and all the things, um, went over to Russia and they, they sort of went a cold building. They had handmade leotards and no, no hand guards on the bars. And I was like, wow, you know, I'm really lucky where I am.
They didn't complain. They just got on and they trained. And I think even that early exposure to, to different environments and different cultures, um, really made me grateful. And when I got back, just made me really embrace things even further and go, wow, I've actually got more opportunity here then probably a lot of other people around the world.
But I just enjoyed it and I think getting, getting those experiences so young kept me wanting more. Um, I was always looking for what's next? How can I get better? It didn't always go right. I remember my very, very first ever competition. I came dead set last place. But they, they did the call up of everyone and you sort of lined up from bottom to top.
And I remember standing so vividly with my piece of paper, my certificate, and looking up at the podium and the girls and going, oh. That's where I wanna be. And so, like I said, I was just very driven. I just loved it. I loved being upside down. Um, it sort of shifted. I've got like two recollections of my early high performance years.
So I was in the artistic gymnastics squad. I went to Russia, Hungary, Austria, competing in artistic gymnastics all before I was 12. I was missing probably the artistic flare from gymnastics. Um, I was great at the acrobatics, at the tumbling at vault, but anytime I had to leap spin or, or dance, which is obviously a big part of artistic gymnastics, it was, not my strong suit.
Let's put it like that. So, I started tumbling for fun. I just did one competition. And happened to be very good, uh, and within six months was representing Great Britain at the World Age Championships, five days after my 12th birthday. And I just fell in love with this new sport. And the, again, the adrenaline, the excitement, and I didn't have to leap and dance and spin.
Um, so it was in my element. Really embraced it. It was in South Africa and we got to go over and watch the senior competition, and then start the training and, have the junior competition. And I was just blown away. And from there on, I just knew that was where I wanted to be. I had a lot of, lot of success.
So I came seventh at that World Championships, having only trained for sort of six months in the sport and returning home. I remember everyone's going, wow, that's incredible. And I was like, eh. It was cool. It was really cool, but I wanted to get to the final. I was like, I could have done better and I had this burning desire to just do more.
So, the following year I was lucky enough to get selected for the Junior European Championships. And, uh, we changed my tumbling routine the day before the competition. And in the competition itself, I actually forgot what my path was. So I did three skills and I just stopped in the middle of the floor. I looked at the national coach and I said, oops.
He sort of said, oops, what are you doing? And I said, I, I don't know. I actually forgot. Like I forgot what I was doing. And I think that, um, it was a bit of an experience. Um, that was probably a moment where I, I realized that communication is quite important, um, you know, to change a tumbling routine the day before the competition.
Um. Did it sit well with me? Probably not. Was I courageous enough to have a conversation about it? Absolutely not. Um, and I think that just shows, you know, I was very young, I was 13, I was getting whisked away, um, at these events. But, um. I kept going anyway, got back, sort of started communicating a little bit more, learned from, from that little era.
Um, and it was 2001 when I went across to the World Championships again. So it was every two years back then. Had a blast. I went, um, went over with one goal and that goal was to make, make the finals. 'cause I missed out by one place in South Africa two years prior. And I just had a good time and I enjoyed it.
I'd got some friends on the team by that time, um, and just embrace the experience. Um, qualified in second place and there was a big hype and a bus and everyone's going. You could really get a medal here. And we sat in the warmup for the finals and I had a can of Coke and a MAs bar. The coach is going, you've gotta warm up, you've gotta do this, and what are you doing?
And my parents are going, why aren't you taking this seriously? And we've paid all this money for you to get here. And I said, because I reached my goal. My goal was to get to the final. And I'm just here to now, just enjoy it and have fun. And in my head, I'm calculating, okay, well I think the Russian might do this and this person's doing this.
So if I can try this routine, which I haven't put the combination together for. I thought, well, we'll just give it a shot. Like let's just go. I've reached my goal, it's a bonus. So I was very calm and collected. No pressure from myself internally. Maybe there was pressure externally, but it didn't matter to me.
And I actually, so I ended up winning. So I took the gold and, you know, it, it's just, I think that realization for me, you have to be enjoying what you're doing because if you take away the fun. That's where the elements of the stress and the pressure can build up and I think have quite a big impact on performance.
Cameron: You know, amazing story there so often nowadays there's so much stress around pressure, around the outcome, both from the parents and the coaches that trainings laborious and competitions is performance anxiety in fueled sort of arenas.
What do you think of were the key ingredients back then that facilitated that playfulness?
Sami: Yeah, I think environment, like we had a very good group of girls. We're in a squad, a couple of boys too. Um, and we just always. Picked each other up, had a laugh, found the funny things. You know, we, if my Russian coach listens to this, um, we, he was lovely, lovely guy. Like I had my coach from the age of six, so he was, you know, a little bit like a father to me, knew me better than anyone.
We had quite a, a good relationship. But he, he had quite a thick Russian accent, so you had to listen in quite closely to him. Um, but he also sort of used to, you'd, spray a bit when he was talking and a few bits of saliva work here and there. And so, we would joke and we'd say, oh, you know, oh, Viv wants to talk to you.
You've got your umbrella. You know, and you just keep it, keep it light, keep it fun.
Cameron: it light.
Sami: Yeah. And there were days that I didn't have a good day. There were days where some teammates didn't have a good day, but you're there for each other. And I think that's a real key ingredient because you spend so much time training doing what you do.
Um, you know, if we, when you were learning new skills, you don't just get it straight away, you're full, you do silly things and it's embracing those moments. I think there were plenty of times where we would. Make fun of each other. You know, you try something new for the first time and you sort of land not the right way up and you know, just don't take it too seriously.
I think, yes, we were competing on the world stage, but you have to enjoy it. And I think,
again,
Cameron: were probably competing against each other as well, eh?
Sami: Yeah, each other, other countries, you sort of obviously, um, meet the same people on the international circuit over and over and you form relationships and, you know, you might have your arch, arch nemesis in there. I did, I had, that was me and one Russian all the time against each other. Um, but you just create those relationships where it's, uh, you know, it's mutual respect, but there's friendship and those friendships carry you through.
Cameron: But then everything changed after an injury.
Sami: Yes. Yeah, it did. So I was so excited for 2004, so I. As we've spoken about, had a really great junior career and 2004 was it, I was age legible to step into senior and I had been waiting like for so long. So the British tumbling team, their seniors were very strong. Um, and at that point there was a lot of funding behind it, so I just couldn't wait.
I was almost wishing away my, my years waiting to get to senior. So stepped in and it was the year there was a European championships, British Championships, and I was on, you know, a really good trajectory. Uh, and then we had our British Championships in March and I went, I had a couple of new tumbling passes.
Uh, I was gonna be doing a new skill, but in the qualification round, I. Did my routine and as I landed in the competition run, um, dislocated my knee. And I just remember thinking to myself, oh, that really hurts. And I sat down ever so elegantly, sort of clutching my knee, facing the audience. So trying to be exceptionally brave.
Um. Physio came over, sort of popped back in and I got, you know, the carry off and the big clap from the stadium, which you never wanna have to be in that position. And I sat down, icing it, watched the rest of the competition. And I remember saying to the physio that night, I said, so. Can we just ice it and we'll just strap it and I'll just compete tomorrow.
Like, am I gonna be okay to compete tomorrow? And my coach was there. My mum was there, the physio was there. The doctor was there. We had a few people from British Gymnastics, and they were all just looking at me and they like, no, Sam, like, you need to rest and we need to see what the outcome of this is.
And I was like, but it's fine. It's fine. But I mean, it was like a balloon. Um, I couldn't wait there. So. I had to withdraw from the competition, which I was just absolutely gutted about. Like, I'd been waiting for so long for this moment. Um, I stayed positive at that point, so the European Championships was still sort of three, four months away.
And I remember thinking, I can just get, I can get better, I can get back, like I'll still make the team. But unfortunately, like we had to wait a couple of weeks for the swelling to go down. And I got a scan done and the scan came back and it was a full rupture to my anterior cruciate ligament. And I remember the phone call I got, so it was, uh, oh, I've got really good news for you.
It's not your meniscus. I was like, okay, brilliant. What is it? Oh, you don't have a ligament left. Oh, what does that mean? Um, and yeah, so it was surgery, I think within about. Six weeks I was, getting my knee operated on. They took my hamstring and drilled it through and twined it round and they asked if I wanted a video of the surgery, to which I politely declined.
But I remember waking up from the surgery and I said it had all gone well and I spent a few days in, in the hospital and I was told it would probably be very difficult to come back and, and sort of tumble and put the load through it to the. Extent that I, I had been, so that in itself was quite challenging.
But I remember looking at my mom and I was quite headstrong, , and saying to her, um, don't they know who I am? And sort of thinking, well. I'm not gonna be told I can't do something and that I can't tumble again because that was everything to me. And that was, um, I wasn't ready to accept that my tumbling career might be finished.
So I actually moved to the National Training Center for three months of intense rehabilitation. So that meant stepping away from, I was in year 12 at school. At that point I'd started studying psychology, so moved away from that.
My friends, my partner at the time, my boyfriend, my family, and did this three months and sort of was all in on that. Um, I parked studies a little bit 'cause my priority at the time was get this knee better. Like I just wanna get back on the tumbling floor. So that went quite well. But I went home and it was at that point getting home that things really took a turn.
Um, and, and I would say derailed quite quickly. Um, I don't think I'd quite. Come to terms with the injury itself and what that meant. I was still hanging on to, I should have been at, you know, the European championships and I, I've just found myself in this void. Um, and everything became really quite hard.
I ended up really shifting to just socializing and going, okay, well what's the point? What am I doing? I can't be training. So. What, what do I do? And I think it was that moment of I actually don't have really much else going on. And, looking back, that was probably a red flag, to say, I.
You need some things outside of your athlete career, but I don't think at the time I was ready to accept that. Um, and I don't think there definitely wasn't enough conversations about it then and there wasn't enough support and people helping you navigate through that. So I spent this sort of period of just going out doing everything that I didn't do as, you know, an a sort of early adult.
Um, but I had this moment where the team still went away. They went over to the European championships and. I wasn't following at all really. I'd sort of, um, almost built this wall up to protect myself around having to manage those emotions that I was going through. Um, but the news sort of came out, the team podiums, they got a medal and then obviously saw all these photos of my teammates and the, the trip and the experience and it was like this light switch for me of I'm not done and I wanna be back there and I should have been on that team and I'm not ready to not be an athlete.
So. After spending sort of three months in this big hole of, avoidance and really not figuring things out, I, I switched, I went back in the gym. My rehab became my primary focus. I actually dropped out from studying completely. And just decided to go all in. It was like, I am, I'm gonna get back there.
Um, I worked really hard and got selected for World Championships the following year, so. 15 months later, I was back representing Great Britain at the Senior World Championships. Like I finally made an international senior event. Um, it was incredible. I came third, so I think for me that bronze medal is, it beats any other title I've got because it was that journey of, getting there and getting through some challenging times.
Um. Another bombshell drops when I got home in that, my coach, who I'd have since the age of six, so 11 years, was moving and there was a little bit going on in the clubs and politics and, um, uh. I wasn't aware at the time of everything that sort of was happening behind the scenes. Um, so I was quite angry.
I thought he was leaving me, abandoning me. Um, what did this mean? I was then on my own, so he left. Um, so I'd sort of fought those, you know, 15 months to get back and then. After that, uh, you know, communities are quite small, so there was a lot of talk of like, oh, she's gonna quit now. That's it. She won't keep progressing without her coach.
And going back to that headstrong, stubborn personality of mine, I was like, well, hang on. These people are saying this. I'm gonna prove them wrong. I'm not ready to give up on being an athlete. So I trained on my own for two years. Uh, quite challenging. Um, you know, had its perks. If I didn't feel like going, I wouldn't go.
But, you know, the implications of that, you needed a level of discipline. Um, I found myself driving four hours. Up to where the national coach and the rest of the team were. And I would train with them for three days and I would come home on a Sunday night work and juggle some sort of part-time training for three days of the week and then get back in the car and do it all again.
Um, so I kept going. Back on the international stage, won World Cups, world Cup finals, senior European championships. Um, but over that period of two years of having to juggle work and I worked in a supermarket stacking shelves in the morning from 6:00 AM till nine, and then I would go and train and then I work to lunchtime waitressing shift, and then I'll go and train, and then I'll work in the evening at the pub as well.
And it was, okay, what can I do around my training? And, I think it's not spoken about enough, but employment as an athlete, it's very hard because you spend half the time traveling, in a way that you really need some flexibility. So I never really explored myself outside of being an athlete.
It was, what can I do to support, me being an athlete, I was never gonna run a pub. Um, but the pub shifts worked. I didn't wanna be stacking shelves for the rest of my life, but it worked. So, um, you know, years of juggling that, the financial pressures not having a coach, some skill issues, all these cracks started appearing.
And my love for the sport. Was fizzling away and I talked about it earlier. The most important thing is that you are loving what you do, that you're enjoying it and you're having fun. But it had almost become a chore, and I knew deep down I still wanted to be the athlete. I still wanted to be on the international circuit and competing, but I wasn't in love with the sport and I wasn't enjoying what I was doing because it was so hard.
So I went to the World Championships in 2007 and I. I remember not wanting to really go to the world championships, but at the same time I felt all the time like I needed to for the team.
Um, so my score still needed to count for the team to do well, so I went over, but what that meant was having to stand on a tumble track. I'd completed one of my passes, but I needed to score a zero on the second pass so that I was still illegible to compete in the team competition the next day. So I had to present to the judges now after my first, uh, tumble, I was two and a half marks in front of the, of second place of the Russian.
And I just remember such an overwhelm of emotion and thinking I would rather be anywhere else but here right now. But I had to walk on and the whole stadium was completely silent. I presented to the judges, but instead of running down to do my second tumbling routine with, with the twists in it, I just walked off the tumble track because I had to do that to get that zero score and.
I just remember my eyes completely welling up with tears and you know, a few people tapping me on the back. Everyone was confused. The other nations were confused, the audience was confused. There was this big gasp and I just, I walked out and I just cried and I sat in a hallway just crying, and I remember speaking to my mom and she just said, I dunno what you, I dunno what to say.
And you know, obviously she was upset for me. And I just said to her, mom, I can't do this anymore. As much as I want it, I can't do it. And I just, I don't enjoy it. And so I went back from that world championships and I was a broken athlete, completely broken. And I actually never went back in the gym. And I remember mum trying to encourage, encourage me to go and she said, you know, you've gotta go back and have some conversations.
And I just, I'd shut down and I said, I, I don't, I can't. And so it was. It was hard. And it was that realization then of who am I? Like my whole, and I think we can get wrapped up in, you know, I, I was a gymnast, I was a Tumblr, I was a world champion. I was, that was who I was. Um, not, I'm Sam Palmer, who loves doing X, y, z who does gymnastics.
It was like, that was who I was. And so. I found myself in this just black hole, and at that time I was 20, so still very young, like still very young for an athlete and especially a Tumblr. They, you know, they can sort of keep going until their late twenties. But I was just empty, broken and felt like I didn't know who I was not being a gymnast.
And that was a, a big, big realization and a big shift in point in my life.
Cameron: Yeah, what a story. And I think one that. Lots of people can either relate to themselves or are working with people or come across situations like it, and there's so, so many important points that I'd like to bring up. You know, one about this idea of when we put all of ourselves into something, we almost fuse who we are with what we're doing.
Whether you're an entrepreneur, starting a business, whether you're a surgeon always wanting to be a surgeon or an athlete, always wanting to be an athlete. And, you know, I, I remember personally that, that feeling of having lived quite an incredible life, but yet not knowing who I was. You know, when tennis kind of got ripped away from me, I was left going, well, who, who am I without tennis?
You know, I'm used to getting achievements. I'm used to. That culture, I'm used to operating within that scenario, and suddenly I'm now feeling like an ant that's been picked up from one world and dropped in another world and everything's new, and suddenly that confidence individual is suddenly this disempowered, untrusting, protecting insecure individual and all because. That identity and that self construct, the self-efficacy, the self-worth, the self identity was a hinge to what I was doing. And it's, such an important point when we look at helping athletes in today's world or helping any youth in today where there's so much pressure for young people to be good and improve. And the support networks available to individuals. It nowadays it is growing and obviously when, when we grew up there, there was very love it. You sort of had just had to, you know,
Sami: Fend for yourself.
Cameron: just pull your socks up and get on with it
Sami: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Cameron: and, and live with those scars, you know, so I, I I feel like it's really, your message is really important because often on the outside you look at people.
Successful people and you make an assumption, you make a judgment that they're successful, everything must be great, but actually what's going on behind the scenes, can be very, very different. I'm wondering how has that shaped you now working with other and being in charge of the wellbeing of, uh, a whole suite of athletes?
Sami: I think there's, there's probably many, many different elements and many things there. One of, I think my biggest learnings about myself. When I was in that sort of, uh, period of, you know, derailing myself, throughout dealing with the injury and, you know, in my head knowing, okay, I still wanna be an athlete, but actually my behaviors and what I was doing were not complimenting what I wanted to be achieving.
And it, it took, look, it took the team going away and winning for me to actually realize and have that, I guess self-awareness and really sit down and reflect and have a hard conversation with myself to be like, what are you doing? What do you actually want? And if this is what you want, what do you need to shift and change?
So I think that's something I work on a little bit with athletes now. It's having the self-awareness and having the accountability on yourself. Sometimes it's easier to point the finger at others, of why things have gone wrong without out actually looking inward first. Um, at the end of the day, we have a choice.
We always have a choice. We are choosing how we behave. You know, we are choosing whether to, to stay up late and go out with friends or whether to go to bed because we have morning training. So I think that's a really important fit, a really important piece. Several conversations, I think over time have come up with athletes and sometimes parents too.
I've worked a lot with parents as well, and something that's said a lot of the time is, you know, we make a lot of sacrifices. We have to sacrifice this or that. And I would challenge people to actually think about that framing because again, we have a choice. We, we haven't sacrificed, but we've actually chosen.
To step in in a direction that's gonna move us to where we wanna be. So yeah, you have to sacrifice things, of course, but no one's making you do that. No one is taking that away from you. You're just choosing what you want because we know the input equals the output. And so, that's something I talk about, a lot of work we do is, is on identity, um, during the career now, so.
It's great you train, you love your sport. You might be competing on the world stage, but that's you as an athlete. So who are you? What do you love to do? What are your passions? What are your strengths? Where can you see yourself in 10 years? What legacy do you wanna leave behind? And I think some of the most important conversations are actually when people come into the high performance system.
And you know, they're starting their journey, but actually being really quite honest, it's, this is going to end, we're just at the beginning. But there will be an end, and the whole bit in the middle is probably gonna be quite messy, and there's gonna be highs and lows. And I always refer to my life on, as an elite athlete, as a complete roller coaster because one minute you're at the top and it's really high, and the next minute you're plummeting down and there's a lot of twists and turns in the middle.
Um, but let's have, let's have some good conversation about what it might look like, about some of those. Um, transition points that you might experience over time. Um, and let's talk about transition out and retirement because unfortunately, sometimes you don't get to choose when to retire. Sometimes it's a forced retirement, sometimes.
I mean, I look back and I made a choice to retire, but I felt forced to retire. Again, hindsight's a wonderful thing and I've learned so much over the years, but looking back, had I have just. Leaned in, to a few people around me, my old coach. Had I not been so stubborn, had I done a bit more self-reflection, had I have not made a decision based off of the emotion I was feeling, you know, things could have been very different, but they weren't.
And I've learned from that and I'm grateful that, finishing when I did and, and then going off for, I actually left sport for about three years. I had nothing to do with sport, um, to go really. Figure myself out and find out what was important to me and take the time away that I needed, I wouldn't have ended up back here.
So while I look back with, I think I'll always have some regrets, but I'm also very grateful for, for where it's ended.
So it's really important to take time. And just unpack and yeah, figure out what do you want? And, and the biggest question, I think the one we always need to check in on ourselves on is, am I enjoying what I'm doing? Because if you're enjoying what you're doing, you'll be successful. And I'm not talking medals here.
Like I think my journey means more to me than the gold medals that are in my cupboard. I couldn't reel off all the achievements that I, you know, got, I have to go and dig them out and, and put the timeline together because they, they weren't what I was chasing. I just loved, loved being connected out there, experiencing, um, the world stage and challenging myself.
Cameron: Yeah, the, the self-awareness piece, especially around our choices. I feel like it's so important and you mentioned those sacrifices that, are obvious objectively. Um, but subjectively when we see them as a sacrifice, just like parenting, you're like, oh, my life's finished now that I've had kids.
And, um, all that I'm sacrificing. And if we have that framework, it's, there's friction the whole way and it's, you know, it's gonna be a struggle. there's gonna be regret. Even if the journey is filled with lots of highs. But when we can just take a moment to go, what am I choosing here?
You know, and what, what do I like to use the phrase? What am I investing in
Sami: Mm.
Cameron: to sacrificing? Um, then we become more empowered in, in what we're doing and we actually end up. Being even more motivated about those choices, because we're, we feel like we're investing in ourselves and it's easy to sort of, I guess, have that perspective doing what we do and understanding human performance and in hindsight, but helping a.
A young person have that perspective. You know, I often feel that a lot of athletes at a younger age, they take on this maturity or they have to be a bit more aware and a bit more mature than the average human growing up. And often there's , an experiential cost to that in the sense that other kids don't relate to that.
Other kids don't have those perspectives, and so athletes can feel a little bit estranged from the world around them because they're having to deal with things such as travel and international competition and these choices and this awareness and the discipline that other. Kids don't have to deal with, and other kids don't, I guess, relate to or can identify with that.
And so there's often a, loneliness or a, a separation felt in athletes from the real world. And so when that world comes crashing down, there's often this isolation and loneliness that these athletes can feel. Not even young athletes, you know, a quarter of, athletes who retire have some kind of mental health related issue, and a lot of this stems around this sort of identity of,
Sami: Hmm.
Cameron: who am I?
You know? And compared to the rest of the world, I don't relate. And who am I now? And if you were. Coaching the younger Sammy, at that period who was feeling lost, unsure of the identity and isolated, what would you tell her?
Sami: I would tell her firstly to be kind to herself, um, and allow the time. And I think, there's an element of it where you're, it's almost like grief. You're grieving leaving this person behind it. It sounds really odd, but, um. I'll come back to this, but even now, so my partner and I, we've been together 17 years, I think engaged for about 14 and we're not married.
And a big reason he, I refuse to change my surname. And he's like, our kids have his surname, we've got two boys, they're tailors. Um, and he's like, why won't you change your name? Like that's, you know, that's a part of getting married. And I'm like. That's my identity. Like I'm Sam Palmer and it's, there is still a bit of me and I think, I'm Sam Palmer as the athlete and that, I sit and think about it sometimes and I'm like, am I just still holding on to that athlete?
That was Sam Palmer. And I, and it's probably a big part of it. I've never quite figured it out. But, um, it's just funny. We, we talk about it all the time, um, and the kid's like, mom, you've gotta be a tailor. I said, why? I am still your mom. It's just my name, but then I can't apply that same thing to like, but it is just a name.
I, I don't lose the achievements. I don't lose my life as an athlete yet. I'm still, I'm, I won't, I won't let go of that surname. Um, but yeah, look, I would say time, allow yourself to feel the emotions. Don't make a decision until you've really dealt with those emotions. Um. Do the work, do the internal work, spend the time to understand self and learn about yourself with what lights up your belly.
What is it that makes you feel really alive and happy? What are your strengths? What do you enjoy doing? Because I think those things and our values, they really do help guide decision making. Again, I wish I had taken some time way back in 2007 instead of getting back from the world Championships in a complete emotional state as a broken athlete and just going, I quit.
I'm done. I haven't enjoyed this for a couple of years. That's that. I wish I had sat in that space a bit longer and given myself some time and, and being kinder to myself. But, we live and, and we learn and. I think for me it really fuels my passion for the work I do now in sharing some of my stories and helping athletes through, through those really gray, patchy, uncertain times.
Cameron: It's an interesting question because I mean, you said so much there and it is also. different for each individual. And I nowadays there is so much support out there and available. Like people may not see it or have access to it, or when we're feeling in that isolated place, we tend to separate ourselves to reinforce that, that state and that feeling and the work you do now I think is so important and the fact that sporting associations and bodies have that, head of wellbeing is fantastic 'cause it, it just allows that, that conversation to happen and allows funding and avenue for support and so forth. What do you, see as the.
The biggest issues out there at the moment with athletes and their wellbeing. What are the, the challenges that they're facing?
Sami: How long have you got? I think, look, I think there's still a few challenges. There was, a period of time where there was a, a lot of talk around dual career, um, and a real focus on athletes having, you know, a career outside of being an athlete, but to, to manage the time. Um, and the commitment of both, an elite sport and a career is very hard. And there are a few athletes who've done it incredibly well.
It differs sport to sport because of the age in which athletes peak at and start performing on the international stage at, but you know, we have surgeons and javelin throwers and we have teachers, and sprinters and, you know, it can be done. However, I think sometimes athletes can get quite overwhelmed by the thought of needing to have a full career and a sport and manage time and recovery and training and finances.
So for me it's about creating that balance. I think. It is very important to have something outside of sport and it doesn't necessarily need to be a full-blown career, but a passion project or, a part-time job like I did by waitressing, and it was so social. Because it allows that cognitive reset from your sport and you don't carry, the bad training session or the challenges you're facing in sport, throughout the evening into your sleep and into the next morning.
You know, you're actually giving yourself that cognitive switch off completely. And I think that's really key and really important. So I think it's just the approach and how we work with the individuals. On that, because I think I've spoken to some athletes who feel this immense pressure to go to uni to manage that, to have a, you know, have a career, know what they're doing.
But I think there's ways to do it without adding that level of pressure. And then of course, finance is always, you know, uh, a challenge in high performance sport and being able to fund your training, have some play money.
Cameron: Mm. Yeah, the finance is such a struggle. I work with lots of elite athletes, and they're given like a budget of 14 grand a year, and they're having to, live, train, eat off that, you know, and, and obviously that's impossible. And so they're needing to, do flips in the street and busk for money, or they're having to do whatever they can.
As you said, you worked in the pub, you. Worked as a waitress and you did whatever you could to make it work. But all of that adds stress, reduces recovery, adds tension, stops. You really, that high motivation ability to be in flow each time you train and that then has an effect in competition.
And it's a real, real challenge. For athletes, to keep that, that desire and that hunger, especially when you become so estranged from the usual way of everyone else, how they're growing up and what
Sami: Mm-hmm.
Cameron: and it becomes this journey where at some stage you really start to question it, but almost infra a penny in for a pound.
You've dedicated so many years to it, people feel obliged to stay in it because otherwise, what, what's it all been for?
Sami: Yeah.
Cameron: And if someone's feeling that, what kind of conversation would you have with them?
Sami: I think again, it comes down to the individual, but it's really about asking them to be honest with themselves. Um, I've supported a few athletes transitioning out, and I think sometimes inside they, they know they're ready to transition away from competition. But it's scary and they're just not ready to really look at what.
The world outside of that is they've been in their comfort space. And it is, it's a comfort bubble. It's what you do, it's what you love. You have your family within your sport. So to think about stepping away from that, it, it's, it's very scary. So again, it's those individual conversations on time.
It's, if staying connected to sport is important to you, what are some avenues and what do you want that to look like? Especially more today. There's a lot of alumni programs, there's mentorships, there's coaching, there's judging. There's so many ways to stay connected in with the sport, but I just don't think the conversations are had enough.
Um, it took me three, four years nearly of going and traveling. And exploring myself to know that, you know what, I'm not ready to leave elite sport. I love elite sport. And not because I've just done it and I think I should stay in it, but because I actually have a genuine passion, for high performance.
So I think it's, they're all unique conversations. I don't think there's one framework, one conversation or one scenario that can fit all athletes, but it's being honest with self, and discovering what it is you want. And not every elite athlete will want to stay in sport or some, and some conversations I have are, I really want to, but not now.
And I would encourage people that. If they know and they have the desire that they wanna stay, but they also think they need that break, take the break. I think it's really important to look after self. Um, take the break. You need the sport's not going anywhere. The door's not closing because you're finished being a competitor.
There are so many other avenues to, to connect back in and. Working in sport, we want those athletes to stay and connect in because with them is a whole wealth of knowledge. You know, whether they've been two years, five years, 10 years in the sport, they have that lived experience that they can share back with our next generation.
Um, and we don't want that knowledge to walk out the door. So. You know, hand in hand with what we're doing in the wellbeing space is ensuring that athletes enjoy their time in sport. And again, it comes back to the enjoyment piece. Like, if you're not enjoying and loving the journey, then why are you still on it?
Um, so we want people to enjoy their time in sport. We want them to leave better place than when they came in. So a lot of the work, even understanding self, these skills, values, time management, budgeting, leave with those skills because. If they're also gonna help you set up in your next, chapter of the book.
Some of the conversations that even with athletes on, do you realize how many of these skills you have? Because I think as an athlete you're so just focused on performance, your recovery, doing everything around it that's gonna make sure that you compete the way you want, that you don't actually realize that you're building this whole toolkit of skills that can transfer into life outside of competition.
So there are a lot of conversations I have too. It's, you know, you. What are your strengths? I don't know. Okay. Well, let's unpack that. Let's actually look at all the things that you've learned over your time as an elite athlete and how that can translate into real life scenarios.
Cameron: But before we come to the end of the pod, 'cause the time's run away with itself. I'm cu I'm curious to hear your, with the position that you are in. How that culture of high performance is being created these days.
Sami: Mm.
Cameron: coming back to that last conversation, my experience with a lot of athletes who just don't want to compete anymore or they've had enough or they're burnt out or, you know, it's often that they don't, it's not that they don't love the sport, is the way they've been approaching competition.
been really unhelpful and self-sabotaging in the sense that they've grown up in a culture of, just push harder, you know, negate your emotional. Awareness in order to perform better. And there's this, you've gotta grind through it. Gotta push harder, gotta be more combative.
Gotta, and, and there's that sort of tension that builds up. And then when competition's over, there's that relief. It's like, ah. And there's almost like an addiction of, I need to compete. I need to compete, but I don't wanna compete. I've got all this dread and performance anxiety. And then it finishes and like, oh, thank God it's finished and I'm never gonna do that again.
And then straight away you're onto the next competition and,
Sami: Yeah.
Cameron: it cycles and it cycles and it cycles. And often that being fueled by these sort of. Sports coaches who were working off that 1970 sports psychology playbook, of no pain, no gain, and survival of the fittest and so forth.
And not because it's their fault, it's just what they were taught and what they've inherited. And, I'm curious with you and your position now as that sort of head of, head of wellbeing, and now in two different, uh, arenas. How do you see that high performance culture, changing and do you feel like there, there is that growth, there is that current research that's being filtered down in, into that new culture.
Sami: Definitely. I think there is a big shift to person first approach. But it goes for coaches too. So we are not just working with athletes, we're working with coaches because coach burnout is also very prevalent. Um. I think, you know, and I come from an era where it was, you know, uh, results and results based results.
Results driven, no pain, no gain, definitely. But I think organically through. Having the jobs, doing things outside of sport. I'm a very social person. Um, so making sure there was always time for social, I did naturally just build, those pockets outside. So that there was a balance because for me, and working with athletes and coaches now, I think getting the balance right is important.
Yes, there is a high level of commitment. Yes, it is going to be very hard at times and it's not pain free. But, what is important, we're looking after mind and body outside of sport. There is a lot of research that suggests that when our domains are balanced and when we are healthy outside, we perform better.
And we do. So if we are only solely focusing on performance and outcome. We're actually doing a disservice to our people, and we won't get the results we want. So I think the approach now person first balancing, well, it is looking at those other domains that sit outside. And I think what's often missed is.
If we don't focus on those, um, and you know, we've got relationships outside of our sport that may be breaking down because we are not putting any focus towards them. It's like a domino effect. So whilst your sport might be going well and your relationships outside of sport, or your finances or you know, any of these other areas are crumbling away, that's gonna have the domino effect and impact our performance anyway.
So it's really important. That we are knowing what sits outside of those and nurturing all of them. Because when we do that, that's when the magic happens and that's when the performances will come, and be sustainable. So, you know, there's the longevity piece. It's not let's put all our eggs here and get that one result.
Like we actually want sustainable performance. And the way to do that is by looking after wellbeing.
Cameron: Hmm,

Cameron: so many great nuggets to take away there. In coming to the end of the pod, I always ask a couple of questions. A book or a film that has either changed your life or been hugely impactful for you.
Sami: Um, I think it's been said a number of times on your potty. Uh, James. Clear Atomic Habits is definitely one. I think if you haven't read it, you need to read it. If you have read it, go back. I think every time I read it, I pick up something a little different out of it. And the other book I really actually quite enjoy is the Magic of the Metaphor.
I think it's Mark Owens. I love a metaphor because I, I think it's a very good way to relate to a situation, but by removing emotion and it sometimes brings those aha moments that, you look for sometimes in the conversation. So that's another really great one.
Cameron: Yeah, I must check that out. It's amazing how a story or a metaphor or an analogy can just loosen those structures we hold and make us not so protective about it and can really allow us to see the insight there.
Sami: yeah.
Cameron: Yeah. Awesome.
Time to flip the mic.
Sami: Yeah, I could ask you so many. Um, but I will today ask you what in your opinion, is the most important for longevity in sport?
Cameron: At an elite level, I imagine you're talking about, yeah. My, I, feel like there's two answers to that, and one would obviously be the physicality of it, right? If we don't, I mean, talking to someone, uh, you're talking to someone whose body is built to get injured as quickly as possible. Um, you know, looking after your biomechanics, really looking after that kind of more structural piece and that, that core, so the external limbs and everything.
Don't compensate and add pressure and you know you do really well and suddenly you find yourself injured. So, testing from a biomechanical and physiological point of view, I think is, is super important for longevity. But from a more psychological perspective, I think our relationship with pressure, coming back to what I was saying earlier, where there's, if our relationship with pressure and stress and competition is one of.
Grit and one of pushing through. Then ultimately, all the things you talked about, that enjoyment is gonna go, the outcome's gonna come so important. We're gonna start fusing things to the outcome that doesn't need to be fused, be it self identity, what have you. We're gonna not perform our best under those pressured situations.
And the higher you get and the older you get, and the more elite the situation gets, the more the pressure comes. And, and so I so often see athletes talented athletes, go by the wayside. They turn to sex, drugs, and rock and roll. They turn to anything other than that continued competition because they, they have a, a relationship with pressure that is, isn't helpful and, you know, and sometimes even unhealthy.
But if we can learn to love pressure, if we can learn to see it as that chrysalis. A new ability. If we can learn to see it as the pathway for growth and everything that mastery contains, and we can see it as a, context to find our flow, then suddenly we're attracted to it, we invite it, you know, and it doesn't become this daunting thing.
It becomes a highlight, of what we're doing. And that I think, sustains. Athletes to come back again and again and again and, and want more. And, revel in the challenge. And so I'd say from what I see, that seems to make a huge difference as to their desire to sustain the performance at least.
Sami: Yeah. Awesome. Thank you.
Cameron: Well, thank you so much for your time, Sammy. Great to chat.
Sami: Oh, you're
welcome. It was really great.
Yeah. Thank you for having me.
Cameron: my pleasure.


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