Cameron Norsworthy

[00:00:14] Kev: Hey, and welcome back to part two of Flow. And Kim, thank you so much for letting me go so in depth with you. I'm sure that who has read your book is appreciative of maybe getting a different angle that they might not. Receive in the same way as if they just read the book, right? Whenever we pick up a book, we somewhat start a conversation with the author, the author doesn't really utter words in the sense, it's just what we are reading.
[00:00:50] Kev: We don't pick up as much as we could, as if we're seeing a face. And if you're just listening, you know, listening to
[00:00:57] Cameron: the framing around it [00:01:00] is twofold, right? There's this, okay, I'm ready. I'm studying myself now. How do I drop in? How do I go from being focused to being absorbed? How do I go from a high degree of effortful control to a high degree of effort, less control?
[00:01:22] Cameron: You know, how do I just cross that chasm or flip that switch or just allow it to, to unfold? And so there's, more of a momentary performy. Lens to it. I'm in that yoga pose, I'm having this conversation, I'm doing a presentation, I'm whatever we might be doing, I'm having a sporting match.
[00:01:45] Cameron: How do I get into that pocket, that sweet spot? And there's another side of things in terms of how can I live in flow. How can I [00:02:00] be flow? And I don't mean that in the sense that we are in flow for 24 hours a day, but rather how can my lifestyle attune towards being aligned with the principles of flow, which might mean helping ourselves out.
[00:02:20] Cameron: With removing the usual distractions that are constantly bombarding us, be that notifications, the clock on the wall, so forth. You know, are there kind of lifestyle scenarios that will allow us to, as you talked about earlier, surrendering a little bit more? So I, I think whilst we don't need to go deeply into either of those, 'cause they're very well laid out in the book, um, I think it's important for people to understand that we can do both.
[00:02:59] Cameron: There, there [00:03:00] are changes we can make both on a lifestyle level that allow us to be more in flow throughout the year. And there's, increasing frequency and there's more momentary skills that will allow us to drop into flow within the moment to a greater intensity. So it's just interesting to look at flow from an intensity level as well as a frequency level.
[00:03:43] Kev: I feel like the potential of flow and the research and everything is, is really diminished by just not being understood. And not being relevant to people in the same way because of the language [00:04:00] that we use.
[00:04:04] Cameron: Yeah, it's a really interesting point you've brought up and something I come across a lot and
[00:04:11] Cameron: from a human perspective. People often relate to flow already. We call it by different names. You know, we call it being on fire in the pocket, in the sweet spot, having our white moments. Different domains will refer to this space as different things as talking to a fighter pilot and they call about being in the bubble.
[00:04:34] Cameron: Coders talk about being wired in like we all. Talk about it, acknowledge it, but rarely spend the time to think more deeply about it. And so I think to answer your first part of that question, I think it's important to use those [00:05:00] words, that language, to help people relate to it, bring it back to their experience.
[00:05:06] Cameron: How is what we're describing relevant to you and your language and subculture and all the rest of it so we can, we can connect with it. Because yeah, at the end of the day, that's the most important thing. If we relate to it, it feels more accessible, and if it feels more accessible, we put more intention into recreating it.
[00:05:26] Cameron: So that first and foremost is the most, most important thing, however. When the varied terminology and language of flow becomes so sparse, so many, it's very difficult to understand what we're talking about and certainly with flow. Flow's used in all sorts of manners and ways and even insurance companies are telling us, buy insurance with [00:06:00] us and your experience more flow like it.
[00:06:02] Cameron: It's difficult to really trust a particular line if there isn't an established thought behind it. And I, I think the efforts of the last decade. Especially with the introduction of neuroscientific research has really allowed us to be a bit more focused with how we're describing flow. A little bit less.
[00:06:28] Cameron: It means something completely different to every single individual because if, if that's the case, how can we ever really communicate or create comparable thought and pass on intelligence. Like at some stage there has to be synthesis, some kind of collective understanding, some kind of mutual agreement around what we're talking about.
[00:06:53] Cameron: Otherwise, it does just become words. So one of my pain points in the past is that the [00:07:00] language around flow has been so varied that I don't know if people are talking about the same thing at all. And, and then that lessens the value of what flow is. It lessens the impact of the potential, of more people allowing it into their lives because it's so misunderstood.
[00:07:22] Cameron: We don't spend the energy and time to prioritize it.
[00:07:28] Cameron: So, it's an interesting debate in terms of. Meeting people with where they're at with their language to increase the relatability and accessibility, and at the same time, increasing a coherent narrative, understanding language science around it so we can get closer and closer towards.
[00:07:59] Cameron: The [00:08:00] conceptualization and the application of it.
[00:08:08] Kev: Yeah, good point. So what about the benefits? Why should they care?
[00:08:19] Cameron: The benefits. Plentiful and I like to often frame flow as a meta state, So we might be seeking performance, we might be seeking productivity, we might be seeking connection, we might be seeking creativity, we might be seeking engagement. The, the sort of the buzzwords that. The outcomes that we ordinarily hear or that people will pay attention to or that people will pay money for, that people will put effort into changing their lives towards and spending time and [00:09:00] energy for those particular outcomes.
[00:09:03] Cameron: And flow is a state that sits underneath all of those scenarios and fosters each of those outcomes. And when we look at flow as a meta state, enabling performance, enabling, enabling productivity, creativity, engagement, and so forth, then for me it's like, wow, why try and hit five targets when I just can hit one?
[00:09:36] Cameron: It makes. It makes things so much simpler. You know, flow's often seen as this missing link between wellbeing and performance, where often thought has been at odds between, well, if I've gotta be high performance, then the wellbeing is just a sacrifice of that. And flow has an alternative perspective in in which [00:10:00] internal harmony is the wheelhouse of performance.
[00:10:04] Cameron: And if we don't have that wellbeing, then we can't have that internal harmony and it links both of those together and reaching sustained high performance. And so there's this, for me, flow and a flow mindset and putting, putting time and energy into facilitating more on our flowing lives. Just simplifies everything.
[00:10:34] Cameron: Like it simplifies my personal and my professional development. It simplifies my desire for wellbeing and my desire for increased performance. It simplifies creating meaning and purpose in life. Like, it, it, it's the, it brings it all together and therefore becomes hugely meaningful as a focus and why people should care.[00:11:00]
[00:11:05] Kev: Yeah, that almost became philosophical there. What I'm hearing you say too is, uh, it's almost packaging work life balance into a state.
[00:11:25] Cameron: It could be. Yeah, as long as that packaging doesn't come across as something that's, again, something we need to purchase and something that we need to seek and attain. But yeah, it certainly brings together those otherwise disparate concepts that we might chase in avenues that create more discord in us and more conflict in us.
[00:11:52] Kev: Hmm. Okay, so you're saying there's not gonna be a a $500 product that's just gonna insert flow [00:12:00] into their life insurance flow insurance.
[00:12:05] Cameron: Drink this bottle of flour and life will be okay.
[00:12:12] Kev: Okay. So back to the book a little bit. How does it all work together? Because you mentioned, well, it kind of brings it all together when you talked about flow. So how does the three steps, how do they work together as a system?
[00:12:30] Cameron: So ready, study flow, the, the framework throughout the book, the three parts ready. Talks and discusses. It provides practical lessons for our self-leadership. The changes we can make, the reflections upon how we lead ourselves and what manner of self-leadership is aligned with allowing more flow in our life.
[00:12:55] Cameron: Steady allows us to integrate [00:13:00] that into practice. Allows us to steady our position. That approach that we might have got on board with philosophically and allows us to attune our preparations in the moment to stay on track, stay steady, and then flow allows us just to move beyond that conscious experience, that consciously controlled experience that might otherwise be quite good.
[00:13:30] Cameron: And as we talked about earlier, composed and controlled or relaxed or even playful or perhaps high performing, but not going to that next level of just stretching ourselves and being able to really find new insight into our ability and have that deeper. Experience that has a deeper connection, deeper absorption, a deeper level of effortlessness in which we leave surprise by what we just [00:14:00] did.
[00:14:01] Cameron: And flow is that last bit that allows us just to give us that nudge or let go a little bit more. And so the integration of self-leadership, self-regulation, self-actualization. They stack on top of each other to allow that self-actualization and they allow sustained self-actualization in the sense that if we don't have that self-leadership and self-regulation and process, if we do pop into flow and actualize our own ability as a rounding moment, like a prayer running away from the police and forced into a corner and climb up a fence and go, wow, how did I do that?
[00:14:46] Cameron: We might have those moments in which that happens, but we are not gonna be able to sustain those experiences, both in terms of intensity and frequency. If those pillars of self-leadership and [00:15:00] self-regulation, are not in place. 'cause if eventually those foundations, those cards underneath are gonna come falling, falling down. So if we are gonna build a rock solid strategy. For enriching our lives and allowing more flow. Then we need to start with the foundations. We don't build a house with the, the lights and the roof. First. We build the house with the slab and the, the framework and either the bricks or the wooden, the wooden pillars and so forth.
[00:15:31] Cameron: And then we put in the walls and we make rooms and, and then the last thing we do is sort of the. The finishing touches that might feel the best or look the best or make living in that house feel better as it is with this last stage, this sort of flow stage are often the skills. A lot of clients come wanting those, those little ledges, those little, you know, how do I [00:16:00] just nullify my thinking brain really quickly?
[00:16:02] Cameron: How do I. Align those two brains really quickly. How do I heighten that sensory experience? How do I just flip into flow? They're the more attractive things, of course, but they don't work over time if we don't have those other pillars in place.
[00:16:24] Kev: Yeah, well with the dangers of us creating these boxes of Ready steady Flow. Is there anything you would want people to think to make it more of a one thing, one system, one approach.
[00:16:45] Cameron: Yeah, and I'm, I'm glad you brought that up because, and actually my main idea with the book was that we're putting on a flow mindset
[00:16:54] Kev: Hmm.
[00:16:55] Cameron: and that these three stages ended up coming as [00:17:00] a byproduct of writing that and trying to communicate that. And, and in essence. They're all different ways of integrating flow into how we think and what we do and how we be and having that flow mindset.
[00:17:18] Cameron: You know, they are three parts of a flow mindset and it's helpful to always remember whilst we may use Ready Steady Flow a lot, or whilst it might, certainly in this podcast, we've. We've grouped it and conceptualized it in three very distinct phases. It's all part of this idea of putting on my flow mindset, having flow as a focus, prioritizing flow in my life, and allowing the richness of the experience to play a much larger part.
[00:17:55] Kev: I feel like there needs to be hat that says flow mindset, so you can put it on.[00:18:00]
[00:18:01] Cameron: Good idea. Good idea.
[00:18:06] Kev: writing this book and synthesizing all this research, has your relationship with flow changed at all?
[00:18:23] Cameron: I've come to appreciate it more.
[00:18:26] Kev: Hm.
[00:18:27] Cameron: had to look at it from different lenses. And I've deepened my understanding for certain, you know what? I still have the same struggles that I did 10, 20 years ago, but the significance or severity of those struggles are far less, and I've been able to become a lot better at adapting a lot better.
[00:18:52] Cameron: Working with my human operating system as opposed to working against it, finding a level of [00:19:00] intimacy and cohesion with all that inner a conflict and in a distraction. So,
[00:19:12] Cameron: Certainly I think a big stretch for me in this last 10 years of writing this book is. Being an athlete, in my former years, I was originally attracted to flow as these like special moments that wow, I can have performance excellence and they're just, they stick in my mind when I close my eyelids at night And, and in thinking about flow as a more lifestyle approach about how it can reduce the stresses of our time on this planet.
[00:19:46] Cameron: How it can help us think less and be more stress less and flow more has, has helped me, I guess, deepen my, the meaning behind the pursuit of [00:20:00] flow and the importance behind prioritizing flow.
[00:20:08] Kev: So if someone picks up your book and commits to going through all three steps and developing their own flow mindset, what will shift for them?
[00:20:29] Cameron: One of the underpinning messages behind this book. Is the idea of becoming more experientially intelligent. And by that, I'm sure most people might have heard of emotional intelligence. And our experience in any given moment is more than just our emotions. It's our thoughts, it's our perspective, it's our volition, it's our approach, arousal sensations, and I.[00:21:00]
[00:21:00] Cameron: So when we read the book, it's almost impossible to read the book and not reflect, 'cause there's specific tasks in it to reflect on our experience with the things that we do in our life. And in examining our experience, we become more aware of the impact that our momentary experience is having on our momentary performance satisfaction in life as a whole.
[00:21:28] Cameron: Increasing that experiential intelligence, we're able to become more experientially competent and less experientially negligent, where we just minimize and disqualify our momentary experience because we're focused towards attracting an endpoint or, or goal or, or outcome or so forth. So.
[00:21:51] Cameron: By having that growth of experiential intelligence, which I think someone will get when they pick up this book, they'll also start to [00:22:00] understand that in any given moment we have a subjective experience, and that can be both or either poor or rich at two ends of the spectrum of that paradigm. And that might be different from good or bad.
[00:22:15] Cameron: Right or wrong or satisfying and dissatisfying. And in that richness of an experience, there might be a deeper meaning, a deeper satisfaction or a deeper connection and vibrancy to life that is really, really interesting and might shift how people see the world and what they want to create in their lives. Another. Sort of feedback that I've got from people who have read it is this awakening to the fact that their inner world is separate from their outer world, and that there are many things that they can change to their inner world [00:23:00] that will increase their satisfaction and performance. Where previously the focus might have been on marginal gains in the external world.
[00:23:10] Cameron: Or focusing on things like technique or nutrition or lifestyle choices. Or rather than looking at what adjustments can I make in my inner world to feel more freedom?
[00:23:25] Kev: Hmm.
[00:23:28] Cameron: And you know, I, I gave this book recently to an athlete, a pickleball player that. Represents their country. And in reading the book, I'm not suggesting this is gonna be the experience for everyone because everyone's different. And as well, the caveat here is, we had some discussions in person to, I guess to deepen the understanding of the messages in the book, but within a very short period [00:24:00] of time, and I'm talking about a matter of weeks, this person went from.
[00:24:04] Cameron: Hating their experience on the court wanting to quit, to suddenly finding their flow again and thinking, okay, I've got a future ahead of me. I can keep playing. And that, that, that difference in that short space of time. In terms of their experiential tapestry, their experiential gain is. Profound. It's significant.
[00:24:32] Cameron: It's like it blew my mind and there's a potential there. Like I said, that may not be the experience for everyone, but if you're really, really wanting to have a new way to perform, if you're really wanting to find a deeper experience with what you're doing in your life. Then this book offers avenues or gateways or potential [00:25:00] ladders for you to climb up on.
[00:25:05] Kev: I guess that's a good segue to. Why does the world need more flow right now?
[00:25:18] Cameron: Why does it not need more time? I mean, the world I'm living in is, um, AI's on the rise and there's 25% of the population are on some kind of psychiatric drug or. Seeking help for a mental health related illness. 35% of the population are languishing, and that's on top of the people who are reported to be depressed.
[00:25:46] Cameron: If we're really wanting to pass on a world that is of great value and meaning to the next generation, then we've gotta really think about, well, what are we passing [00:26:00] on? And.
[00:26:05] Cameron: My observation is that so the everyday person is filled with challenge, like life is difficult. Paying the rent, working hard, having a family, getting on with people just living is challenging and most of the time we're dealing with our approach to these challenges. Create conflict and as a result, create stress and dissatisfaction, and then a relief that it's all over.
[00:26:39] Cameron: And it's no wonder why we, need to turn on Netflix and have more wine and live for the weekend so we can, find those highs and get a momentary relief. And then do it all again. Rinse, repeat, and, and there just seems to be so much stress in this world. Increasing [00:27:00] level of anxiety and flow really offers a new way to approach our challenges where we don't have the dissatisfaction of all those suboptimal experiences lacing, our life.
[00:27:22] Kev: If your book helps someone have one really meaningful experience with flow, what would you hope? What would you hope for them to learn about themselves?
[00:27:38] Cameron: I think you just said it, but not in perhaps the words you meant it, that their experience is meaningful.
[00:27:45] Kev: Hmm.
[00:27:47] Cameron: Their experience matters. You know, at the end of the day when we, close our eyelids for the last time, we're gonna have a sequence of subjective experiences that have been rich and meaningful, that flicker through our [00:28:00] eyelids.
[00:28:01] Cameron: The quality of our life is determined by the collective sum of our individual experiences and the quality of thereof. And, and we'll look back on our lives and see it as a success or not based on the experiential tapestry that we've had and not necessarily the pictures on that tapestry, but how rich it is, how many colors there are, and, and that all can be improved or optimized if.
[00:28:28] Cameron: We first connect with the idea that our experience matters, and so often that isn't the case. You know, we nullify it to, I deal with that. At the end of the day, when all these tick boxes are done, our subjective experience in any given moment is, is pushed aside. So if they can come away with the idea that, hang on. My subjective experience, being prioritized and [00:29:00] improving is the most important thing.
[00:29:02] Cameron: And if I can do that, then ly all the byproducts that I'm chasing, performance or the rest of it, satisfaction that will come as a natural byproduct.
[00:29:17] Kev: passive income of flow, how does this tie into the mission that you have for the world? You know, uh. Meaningful experience and transformation of personal development. How does it tie into that
[00:29:35] Cameron: yeah, a number of things come up for me there. One is the idea put flow first another, you know, if we can do that, then a lot of what we talked about can be reality. Another very important message is think less, be more. When I say be more, it's within [00:30:00] italics in the sense of trusting our being brain more and to be in the moment more.
[00:30:06] Cameron: And
[00:30:07] Cameron: to allow the moment to unfold more. And we can be more if we allow ourselves to think less.
[00:30:17] Kev: And here, I thought you were being provocative for a moment. What are you afraid that people won't understand about the book and this work in general?
[00:30:35] Cameron: That perhaps is too philosophical, not practical enough. I mean, I know this conversation in ourselves, we've gone down many rabbit holes of, of perhaps being quite philosophical with how we're talking about it, and which, you know, you, you interview an author, that's probably what you're gonna get.
[00:30:54] Cameron: Um, if you want the practice, pick up the book, but, flow in the past has [00:31:00] been a bit too wishy-washy, or a bit aloof, or a bit untangible, and the main reason for writing the book in the first place was to make it more tangible, more practical, more practical, more accessible. So I would be afraid that people might go, oh, it's not for me, or It's too distant or too far away, or they put in some sort of elite.
[00:31:26] Cameron: Scenario where it isn't, it's too complex for them to really think about, so it's too rich for them to experience or too difficult for them to achieve.
[00:31:39] Kev: So let's go there. What's the minimal effect of dose for someone to apply practically? For them to experience it, to, to understand that it's not philosophical, that it's something that's practical, approachable, and useful.[00:32:00]
[00:32:03] Cameron: A nice. You've asked me to be practical, and here I go straight to a analogy or, but when, when we think of children playing, it seems like so purposeful it and that's what life's about. And why would we stop them playing? Really what flow is is just a more. Deeper engagement of play in many, in many respects.
[00:32:32] Cameron: But rarely as adults, we allow ourselves to play. You know, we often find thinking brain justifications not to play. It's not practical, it's not important enough. There's other things to do and if we can just allow ourselves to play and have fun and experience how our performance was when we were playing, and experience how our satisfaction levels was and our connection to the world around us with a simple actor playing with a child or playing with our [00:33:00] friends on the sporting.
[00:33:02] Cameron: Turf or, or playing with a musical instrument and understand that the, the richness of quality of that experience is perhaps a bit more higher than when we are doing other things.
[00:33:14]
[00:33:29] Kev: Cam, imagine this is the last sentence you can give to your audience and you don't get a chance again. What would you tell them?
[00:33:49] Cameron: Think less, be more because flow matters.
[00:33:57] Kev: I love it. [00:34:00] you so much for taking the time to have. This very in depth interview, very intense. So, thank you for sharing that. And, uh,
[00:34:10] Kev: what else do people need to know?
[00:34:13] Cameron: Certainly for me, a, a journey towards flow has given me a purpose to cohere my consciousness, and it's given me so much experiential freedom across all aspects of my life.
[00:34:26] Cameron: And I've seen it happen for so many other people that my hope is that for people listening to this, that they. Take it on board and start prioritizing flow in their life and enjoy the experiential freedom that comes with it.
[00:34:45] Kev: Well, thank you for listening and, uh, hope you've learned a thing or two and do a thing or two more than you think and learn.
[00:34:55] Cameron: All right, bye for [00:35:00] now.