Cameron Norsworthy

[00:00:18] Kev: Welcome back. Uh, last time we poked a little hole in the topic of study, um, which I felt we didn't get to explore enough. So here goes the second part of that. The study section seems to teach us how to create clear, short term, achievable visions of flow. It somewhat feels counterintuitive. Is isn't flow, supposed to be spontaneous and just happening out of itself.
[00:00:57] Cameron: Yeah, it can feel a bit paradoxical [00:01:00] and I guess similar to. You know, allowing creativity or play to occur. There's a discipline or a structure underneath it that allows us to feel safe to play with novelty, to feel safe, to express ourselves, to feel safe, to trust our intuition.
[00:01:18] And if that's in a Montessori school setting, there's a. A discipline structure that allows the child to learn experientially without that fear of failure and so forth. And so often in different contexts, there are a bit of planning or, or structure that then allows us to kind of go unstructured, if you like.
[00:01:38] And, certainly with this, these visions of flow, they provide the brain with the belief. That it's possible they provide the brain with, I like to talk about signposts as opposed to a plan. It might be a laid out destination in, in all its detail, [00:02:00] these are visions as opposed to plans. So there are a signpost as in we're heading this way.
[00:02:06] What might happen on that road we need to adapt to and be spontaneous with, but we've got a clear direction in which we're heading. As opposed to a flag at the end, the destination that we need to get to. And I think that's the analogy is quite helpful for people to distinguish between a sort of a plan driven outcome approach to rather a more experiential process signpost approach.
[00:02:36] Kev: Hmm. Why is short term so specific? Why? Why did you mention it has to be short term?
[00:02:49] Cameron: It creates confidence and certainty and reduces ambiguity. You know, a lot of research has gone into this idea of [00:03:00] immediate and unambiguous feedback allows us to stay in that optimal. Place of challenge or, or optimal place of complexity. And as soon as something becomes too distant, too long, it either feels overwhelming, unachievable, or just too unrelated, too distant.
[00:03:18] So, certainly with things such as building a business where, we're looking at years, we can certainly have a flow blueprint for that end point, and create that end state and, but then we might break it down. Break it down further and break it down further so that on our day to day we're focused on those mini blueprints as opposed to the bigger, larger one.
[00:03:44] So it doesn't necessarily come at the consequence of, because if we're creating lots of small, small term, realistic, achievable flows, staffs that, that I call them then. They've gotta be aligned with each other [00:04:00] towards one end, right? And that comes from an original vision.
[00:04:05] Kev: What's a flow staff?
[00:04:07] Cameron: So short term achievable flow. So I first came across short term achievable goals called stags, , which was, which was helpful. And then over time we've realized that it's more helpful to. Make sure that those goals are not goals, but visions and visions of flow. So short term, achievable flows.
[00:04:32] Kev: I have a feeling that today's society is a lot about metrics and, uh, specific measurable outcomes. So how do we, either connect or keep them separate and why?
[00:04:49] Cameron: Yeah, really good question. And especially in the business setting and in the sporting setting, to a certain extent, there's this need to [00:05:00] have KPIs, this need to have continuous performance metrics in order to to understand, whether we're heading in the right direction. And they're extremely important.
[00:05:12] And the way I would frame it is that they are important tools for feedback. Rather than a focus of our direction. So a really nice framework that, that I use and touch on in the book is this idea of we create a purpose. We create that heading and that end state, that vision of flow that we want to crystallize.
[00:05:40] That's purposeful Then. In a larger setting as we're talking about now, we might break that down into performance KPIs, or metrics or benchmarks. That would be indicators that we're on the right track, and then we might break [00:06:00] those down in order for those indicators to happen. What short term achievable flows?
[00:06:05] What mini flow blueprints do we need to create? In order to meet that, that allows us to keep on track. So from the subjective individual point of view, we just focus on the, the short term achievable flows. But from a management perspective, we might want to also look at the KPIs and assess and help people foster the support and skills and strengths that they need in order to make those short term achievable flows happen.
[00:06:37] So once these have all been pre-established and identified that they're all cohesive, that they align, then at the end of the day, we just need to focus on our staffs. And over time we might need to change them because what we're doing changes, which is good, we refresh them and update them.[00:07:00]
[00:07:04] Kev: I really like the idea of connecting the KPIs and keeping them hidden, and then. Designing the way that we need to act or the experiences that we need to have in order for us to get to them. Uh, and then just, you know, let them inform if what we're doing is working or not.
[00:07:24] Cameron: Yeah, they're danger zones. They're warning because they're, uh, they're essentially outcomes, and if there's enough emphasis put on achieving those outcomes, we are likely to be in the red. Affecting our performance, affecting our experience, and taking us further away from flow. So as a, as I guess, a sort of a initial calibration, they're quite important to ensure that we've got a strategy and we're heading in the right place.
[00:07:52] But in terms of in the moment, as we're doing, being or as employees are, working, [00:08:00] the focus needs to be on that process, on those short term achievable flows
[00:08:04] Kev: and when you say achievable. Is this about realistic expectations?
[00:08:13] Cameron: Yes, it's about setting ourselves up for success rather than setting ourselves up for stress. Depending on your risk, radar and relationship with failure and relationship with success, it's very easy to shoot for the moon and then become despondent. A classic example is a ridiculous sales target.
[00:08:34] And then we get to the end of the month and we're like, Ugh, we're deflated. We've put all this energy in and haven't hit the target. And over time that motivation will wane and lead to disengagement. And a downturn in performance. So it's quite important that we have, if we're gonna create benchmarks and expectations, that they're achievable.
[00:08:56] That they, they stretch us for sure. They're challenging, [00:09:00] increases our motivation, but we feel that we confident that we have the skills to achieve them.
[00:09:09] Kev: So walk us through how it would go on about creating the blueprint. What are we doing? Are we sitting down, journaling? Are we what, what is the person doing?
[00:09:25] Cameron: So we're embodying a future experience
[00:09:29] Kev: yeah, a quick disclaimer. The forward exercise is probably going to require to. Have you close your eyes and guide you through. So, if you're in a situation where you're not in place for that, just listen and explore and see what happens. And then you can always come back in and listen to it when it's a better time for you in case you are moving or if you're in a place where it's not right for you to close your eyes.
[00:09:57]
[00:10:01] Cameron: and feel free to. To come along the journey with me now if you would like, but you can close your eyes and you can think of a, a future event that might happen. And we're just gonna rewind that movie if you like. And we're gonna go to the, the night before that event.
[00:10:25] And as we go to sleep and closing our eyes, we imagine ourselves doing that event. Performing in flow, moving effortlessly, absorbed in the moment, trusting our intuition, allowing our performance to unfold and feeling satisfied. We sleep. We wake up and in the morning we remind ourselves of that vision being in flow during that event.[00:11:00]
[00:11:03] And we stay ready. We stay steady with your understanding of what that means, and we reach the event. And in reaching the event, we invite the challenge, we invite the complexity,
[00:11:23] and we allow a sense of trust. To feel our consciousness where we meet the moment
[00:11:39] and we allow our mind and body just to perform focused on the task as if nothing else matters.
[00:11:54] And then feeling that experience, seeing what you see, feeling what you feel, [00:12:00] hearing what you hear senses of that experience, take over your body. And in doing so, we create a snapshot, a photo. Two second movie that sums up this experience. A moment within that vision that we want to store and remind ourselves in the future of this experience. And we take that snapshot and we store it inside our bodies. Somewhere safe, maybe in our chest, whatever feels right.
[00:12:47] Knowing that we can draw back on that snapshot whenever we feel like inserting that flow blueprint that we've created.
[00:12:58] And in opening your eyes. Now [00:13:00] what we've done there is we've gone to a feature projection. We've created what neuroscientists would call an end state. So in a. An experience, a state of that event. And we've made it a sensory experience, not just focused on thoughts or, or outcomes or behavior, but a lived, embodied experience.
[00:13:32] And that essentially acts as a blueprint for our, our mind to, to then embody for future. And if, if you were to now take that and. Insert that snapshot. Continuously brainwashing yourself up until the event, the chances of you realizing that inaction in the moment is gonna be a lot higher than if you had not done that.[00:14:00]
[00:14:00] Kev: Well, thank you for that free session. That was nice. You've, you've just given, the whole audience a little snapshot of what it, what it means to be coached, uh, by someone that works with high performers. That was very cool. Thanks for that. And I'm sure listeners might also feel if they've engaged in this, they might have skipped it, who knows, but still, you know, free session.
[00:14:26] Come back to it,
[00:14:27] Cameron: Yeah, absolutely. Again, and again and again, and again and again. Make it your
[00:14:32] Kev: Repeat, just loop it. Yeah. Um, cameron, what does the research show about whether people who create clear visions access flow more consistently? Is this a con consensual theory, or is this your hypothesis at this point?
[00:14:55] Cameron: Yeah, VI research and visualization's really interesting and, [00:15:00] growing all, the time. You know what we know is that. The clearer the vision, the more, the more we look at it through our own eyes as opposed to a third person perspective, then the more powerful it becomes, the more it's multisensory. So the more we use senses or music or things that we can touch here, taste, feel, even if it's using our proprioception or inner balance or other uncommon senses to add to that picture, the more effective it is.
[00:15:35] My research is one of few that have looked at in integrating flow into that vision. And I've found it very, very effective. Obviously anecdotally with clients myself, but from a academic scientific perspective, my first study was back in 2004, I believe, or no, 2003. [00:16:00] And we looked at working with tennis players and improving tennis serve AC accuracy.
[00:16:08] And we created a performance queue where they could. Visualize themselves being in flow under a self-induced trance. And then we re-triggered that to then hit a number of tennis serves. And in that study the accuracy improved by 27%. People's subjective self-report of being in flow increased, and, all the markers were, were, that it was, was, was very, very helpful.
[00:16:40] So, there are few academic papers out there citing it and, but practically I just urge people to, try it for themselves and, experience what it gives them.
[00:16:56] Kev: Hmm. What's your own steady practice [00:17:00] before moments that matter? Do you still need to consciously regulate your state or is it on autopilot?
[00:17:09] Cameron: A bit of both. I mean, depending on what I'm doing and how triggered I am for tennis, for example, I am continuously doing my rituals, before I've rematched, I'll create my flow blueprint and I'll do my preparation triggers to stay steady and before every return and before every serve, I'll do a few things that bring me to where I need to be which, some of them are outlined in the book.
[00:17:36] And before a keynote talk, I'll do my blueprint and I'll do these rituals and I, I probably need to intervene less. Than I perhaps used to, because once I do use one of the intentional preparation cues, it's lasting, it's more powerful.
[00:17:57] I have like a one pager that I carry around [00:18:00] and that helps to remind me of it. You know, because sometimes when you're in the red things aren't clear and you forget what you know. And just seeing something very simple, which you can reflect on, reminds you of hours, years worth of information or learning.
[00:18:18] So it's really important to help ourselves out. And you know, when we are in the red, we are in the thinking brain, and we're not necessarily attached to all that wisdom. An experience that we've had of things working in the past. We might need to give ourselves a bit of a helping hand be that something visual, whatever representation system is gonna be helpful.
[00:18:43] Kev: How do you catch yourself when you're feeling yourself getting out of regulation?
[00:18:54] Cameron: quite aware of it because it feels, you know, I like [00:19:00] to imagine and feel that there's a sea of tension happening throughout my body. And this sea of tension holds my organs together, holds my muscles, my bones together almost like an energetic matrix, if you like. And I can feel right now my, my right shoulder's a bit tight and my weight's more on my left foot.
[00:19:24] And, and I can feel where there's looseness and tension within that body. And when I'm in the reds. There's tightness in multiple places, or it's really highlighted in one area. So that, that's a big cue for me. And then obviously with being aware of the thoughts that I'm having, if I'm really focused on the outcome, if I'm becoming really rigid in my thinking, it has to be this way.
[00:19:48] You know, those are all very clear cues that I'm sort of locked into the [00:20:00] red.
[00:20:01] Kev: I guess you, you kind of already started to outline that a little bit, but can you describe what optimal arousal feels like in your body?
[00:20:19] Cameron: It feels like we're slightly unearthed but up for it as if there's the prospect potential of success. There's this opportunity in front of us and the mere fact that it's not a guaranteed determination. Allows us to be slightly unearthed, allows there to be a bit of novelty, a bit of complexity, a bit of uncertainty, but it's a good kind of stress there.
[00:20:57] It's a good arousal there. One that makes us [00:21:00] excited, one that makes us move towards it, as opposed to move away from it, retreat and protect. So, that's, that's how it feels for me. I guess that threshold of how it feels physiologically has changed over the years. Initially if I just got butterflies in my stomach initially, that would be a bad thing and I would perceive that as bad, you know?
[00:21:24] And now I'm like. Can't wait to have them. And I, I encourage them and want more of them and, even now I can get to a stage where I'm highly aroused and, my legs might be a bit shaky or, um, and ordinarily that would've been a really bad sign. You know, my heart's pumping and I'm sweating and, like if I'm going on stage for a big keynote, but now I see that as great.
[00:21:49] I see that as this is juice. This is gonna help me perform here. So it, it might feel different for different people depending on how comfortable we are [00:22:00] with that arousal in our system and how much we're using that arousal as opposed to suppressing it and creating friction from it.
[00:22:11] Kev: Very interesting. So you, you mentioned butterflies. What exactly are you feeling in your body? What's, the experience of you knowing you're getting or transforming this arousal into the optimal state?
[00:22:42] Cameron: I don't think there's a clear line there, and I feel like it might be different for each individual and how they feel things in their body, but for me arousal comes with energy and this exuberance [00:23:00] that is like, ah, creates prospect and wonder and opportunity?
[00:23:06] Or is it an energy that makes me wanna back off? 'cause it's too intense. And that approach avoid sort of towards, against, forwards backwards. That energy, that arousal inside me creates this energy that wants something or wants to recoil a little bit and then the thoughts and the feelings will exemplify that and amplify that and turn into narratives and so forth.
[00:23:33] So for me, I try to become aware of it at that and it. Energetic feeling that sort of vibrancy and then it's easier to work it towards flow as opposed to, again, away from flow. Help, like it helps me to use it as a stepping stone and I can, use my flow mindset and training to go.
[00:23:54] This is great. This is precisely the injection of neurochemicals. I need to be [00:24:00] hyper-focused, hyper present, and have all my resources towards one end. Have I got my flow mindset? 'cause that's where I'm heading. Okay? Right. If, if I'm in the red, do I need to reset? Do I need to jump up and down like a chicken or do something funny just to completely reset myself and then come back to the task and really invite what's happening?
[00:24:23] And allow, allow myself to see this as an opportunity for growth, an opportunity for a rich experience. And then once I'm, back on board with the mindset. And, turn that arousal from this negative arousal into positive arousal. Then I can move towards the latter stages of what I've outlined in this book of, how do we allow ourselves to become absorbed, not just focused?
[00:24:48] How do I allow effortless action, not just effortful action.
[00:24:58] Kev: Is this just a matter of how we [00:25:00] perceive that arousal is? Is there in reality no limit to how much arousal we can take? Or are we now moving into grit area again? I'm not, I'm not quite sure there yet.
[00:25:13] Cameron: So research would suggest that there is
[00:25:21] an optimal level of arousal that's quite specific to the individual, how used to we are managing interpreting arousal and. The type of task. And what I mean by that is how cognitively complex it is. So physiologically, there's not much difference between excitement and nerves, right? We have, it's the same amount of arousal.
[00:25:50] There's just a different balance point or different inclination towards whether we're accepting it or creating friction with it. So, from one [00:26:00] standpoint, there's no amount of arousal can be that bad if we're not creating friction with it. But in a complex task, let's say, um, writing a document or chess where we're needing to use higher executive functions, that physiological arousal could be distracting from us becoming absorbed.
[00:26:25] It becomes a conflict. However, if we're running a hundred meters where there's no cognitive complexity and it's just a physical activation, then all that arousal, you know, I've worked with, elite professionals who have vomited before a sprint race and still performed incredibly well and had a rich experience because initially that arousal just had this physiological reaction, but then they could get to a place where they could want it and work with it, and then it was really, really helpful for them.[00:27:00]
[00:27:00] So it might depend on your task as to where that optimal arousal is. You know how high. That is, or how low that arousal is. But there certainly exists in an optimal level of arousal. And if we can use the mind to use it to advantage, to dance with it as opposed to be conflicted by it, then we've got a real recipe for us to work with.
[00:27:27] Kev: Hmm. Okay, so I'm hearing there's differences in individuals, what the riot arousal is. There's differences in what ideal means for different things that we're doing. Anything we're missing?
[00:27:53] Cameron: The task complexity from a cognitive level and then our, our exposure, , or, or [00:28:00] ability to physiologically handle that arousal.
[00:28:04] Kev: Hmm. How quickly can someone become familiar to recognize their own arousal and understanding what it, what it means for them?
[00:28:17] Cameron: We can become very aware very quickly if our attention is on it. If we become very aware of what our body's doing, what it's doing to our senses, what it's doing to our thoughts, what it's doing to our emotion, you know, if it becomes a priority. Then we can put ourselves in situations that will proactively create that arousal and we can just witness and observe what's happening within, within our body and mind so we can learn to learn to have a relationship with it, learn to work with it, learn to understand it, so that that can happen very, very quickly.
[00:28:53] You know, our ability to. Use it to an advantage and become competent in turning it from [00:29:00] a distraction into fuel, then that can take differing amount of times for different people.
[00:29:12] Kev: Let's say we tickled the interest and peaked the willingness to engage with creating a blueprint and getting steady for people listening in. What homework would you give them after they stop the podcast today?
[00:29:31] Cameron: The obvious one is pick up the book and start reading. 'cause what we're talking about is, probably laid it out far more clearer in the book, than I have articulated with more detail and more examples. And it might be more relatable and more accessible for people. In that format and, and how it's described.
[00:29:52] And there's little challenges in each chapter for you to take those learnings and then [00:30:00] challenge yourself in your own lives. And so it's, it's very, it's very practical. And bring this into your. Day to day experiment with it. Put yourself in a challenging situation and see if you can turn nerves into excitement.
[00:30:18] See if you can turn any unsettling, distracting nerves. See if you can have a level of intimacy with them where you, you let go of that friction to them and you allow it to become fuel positive fuel as opposed to. These conflicting, this conflicting energy that disrupts our neurology and disrupts our thinking and creates more unhelpful feelings.
[00:30:49] Kev: Let's say one is not able to pick it up because you know they don't have time to go out and buy it, or they don't have an e-reader, they don't have a way to listen to it. [00:31:00] If you could send them one question that would spark some reflection, what would the question be?
[00:31:19] Cameron: If your intention truly is to find flow, how could you use this momentary arousal to your advantage? Knowing that flow is about internal harmony, how can you harmonize with that arousal to help you become absorbed? I was afraid that was two questions, but they, uh, they're
[00:31:52] Kev: Couldn't resist, could you? Well, on that note, [00:32:00] thank you for listening and happy reflecting.