Martin Oetting

Cameron: [00:00:00] Flow unleashed. Unleashed, unleashed.
What if we measured a nation's progress, not by how much money a country makes. By how well its people are truly thriving.
Welcome to Flow Unleashed. I'm Dr. Cameron Norsworthy, scientist and high performance coach to multiple world champions. In this show, we unpack key insights on specific topics so that you are kept up to date with the latest science and practice of human performance.
For decades, economic growth has been the guiding star of nations. GDP numbers rising [00:01:00] and falling like a scoreboard for success. But what if that measure is steering us in the wrong direction? What if prosperity isn't about endless expansion? About creating conditions where people and the planet can truly thrive.
This shift from a more money mindset to a wellbeing mindset isn't just a personal journey, it's a political and societal one. And few people know this better than today's guest after nearly 20 years in advertising. Martin Oin walked away from an industry built on consumerism to explore a different kind of growth.
One rooted in meaning, sustainability, and wellbeing. His journey led him to the thinkers reshaping our economic future, and ultimately to his documentary purpose, A Wellbeing Economies film. [00:02:00] We'll also explore the work of Tim Jackson. Whose, but prosperity without growth has challenged the very foundation of modern economics.
His message, building an economy that prioritizes human and ecological wellbeing isn't just possible. It's essential. So what does a wellbeing economy look like? How do we shift from valuing profits? To valuing purpose, and most importantly, how do we as individuals and societies make this transformation real flow unleashed?
Unleashed. Welcome to the show, Martin.
Martin: Thank you so much for having me.
Cameron: My pleasure. I've really enjoyed watching your film purpose, which was not only. Thought provoking, but it was really well put together. And for people who might be first [00:03:00] coming across this idea, what does an economy of wellbeing mean?
Martin: I think the central notion or I idea is that we've got used to measuring the success of our economy for decades now.
Strictly in monetary terms, in financial numbers, and that the biggest financial number that we have is the GDP. So measuring how well we are doing by just counting how much money the country basically as a whole is making. And the, the idea has always been that wellbeing or, you know, good lives for all of us, flows from.
You know, making sure that the country makes more money this year than it did last year. And the problem is that that equation or that conveyor belt, as it were from money to wellbeing, no longer works that way, particularly because the GDP doesn't really [00:04:00] care about who has the money, how the money's made, where it comes from, where it goes to, it just counts the money.
And so those people who advocate for a wellbeing economy say. Let's stop. Counting money as a measure of progress. Let's not look at money made as the one thing that tells us whether we're doing okay, and let's look at things that tell us whether we're doing okay. And it, it seems counterintuitive at first because we've been so trained on this idea that the economy is all about making money, when in fact the economy is about figuring out who gets to use which resources.
To what ends and whether or not this person or that person or that group of people have access to this or that and can make these things is not only a question of whether or not we have the most money at the end of the process, but it's also a question of does that lead to good lives for us? And the idea of a wellbeing economy is to say, let's [00:05:00] switch our objectives away from how can we make more money to how can we create better lives for everyone involved?
Cameron: Society's so entrenched in GDP. What are the consequences if we carry on the way we're going?
Martin: Well, since GDP is blind to so many effects that we're creating in the world, it doesn't consider the harm that we're doing in that process of making ever more money and counting that. And there are basically two harmful consequences.
One is on. The natural world that we need to survive and to sustain ourselves. And the other one is on the fabric of our societies. So I, I don't like to talk about the environment. I feel like the environment is a misleading term because it always sounds a little like we are sitting somewhere like, almost like in a hole, and then around us there is the environment when in fact.
[00:06:00] We are part living, breathing part of the natural world that we live in. We've just been able to distance ourselves in artificial ways from it, but we need it to survive. So the impacts that we have and the world that nourishes us and that supports us and that allows human life to thrive and exist in the world that we're destroying that by going of after ever more money.
You know, that's the one consequence, and you can see that in all areas in terms of land degradation, in terms of. Overfishing of the oceans in terms of killing species left, right and center. The CO2 emissions, they are probably highest on the agenda for people or in their awareness, but the effects we're creating in the world that we need to survive and that we're destroying are, are manyfold.
That's the one side. And sometimes people think that this whole thing is. Only in quotes, an issue that deals with the natural world, but there is also the cost on society. If you have a system that's designed to [00:07:00] increase revenue, essentially you have built-in incentives that make it so that those who already have a lot will get more.
And that the power of those people who have a lot of money already. Increase is more than the power or the access to, to re resources or the access to, you know, means of, of, of shaping society for those who have less decreases. Even. So we see a, a gap widening between the few who have really a lot and most everyone else.
We also see that. It creates, it puts an incredible burden on society in terms of stress. If, if you ask a system to consistently produce more output, then that system will ask everything of its members and then more, and then more, and then more so. So we are basically tearing our societies apart, and [00:08:00] I don't know about.
The leanings politically of everyone who's listening to this podcast. But my impression is that in the United States, we now see a very extreme version of this, where basically the country says the growth needs to go on at all costs. So we're basically going to put business people in charge of the country and they will find ways of ringing.
The last bits out of our soil, out of this society to make ever more money because that's what we need. We need growth. And I don't know if that ends up being a healthy society at the end, the society in which people can thrive and have good lives. So we have effects on both areas, the societies that we're part of, and the world that we live in, this earth and its natural systems that we need to survive.
Cameron: My perspective on this is we have always had good intentions, I guess, when we've tried to [00:09:00] create society to help people and to allow people to earn money, have jobs, have a better quality of life, have a better quality of experience. But the reality, it doesn't seem to be that way. With anxiety levels increasing, with mental health levels increasing.
Yes, we're more aware of it. Yes, we have more systems to identify these things and. So naturally those statistics are gonna be higher than historically. However, people don't seem to be happier. People are working, working, working, working, working, working. And whilst that might provide a purpose and, and a sense of meaning, um, to what people do, there isn't that necessarily quality of life.
And we know within certain studies that the quality of life differs greatly from country to country. But the. The countries that have the highest scores of wellbeing aren't necessarily those that produce the the highest GDP. And whilst GDP might've been a great [00:10:00] way to generate activity and generate productivity and, and generate money, which the hope was to create a higher quality of of life that isn't a cause and effect and it often isn't correlational, and I only have to look at my life.
And the day-to-day experience of it to notice that when I'm really focused on earning more money, the plants in my house suffer. The presence with my kids suffers. The relationship I have with myself suffers. And whilst there has to be a balance for these things on my personal level, on a united.
Societal level, that balance doesn't get taken to account more often than not. And without a change of policy or without a change of intention, these things escalate. And my wife worked with Tim Jackson [00:11:00] at the University of Sur a long time ago on his work with Prosperity Without Growth, which was an eye opener for me at the time in terms of, we.
We can have prosperity without growth. When we think of increasing prosperity as opposed to increasing growth, then we can look at a economy and we can look at society, and we can look at personal and professional development in a post growth fashion that is able to identify and define meaningful tasks.
And how did. You get into this, and how has this impacted your life and why have you dedicated so much time of your life towards introducing wellbeing into a metric for society?
Martin: Well, I mean, that's basically due to the two protagonists in my film. I, I was on a wrong path for about, you know, for. 22 years of my life, which [00:12:00] sounds dramatic and it kind of is, but when I went to university, I was struggling to figure out what to do.
I'd always had these artistic leanings and I'd always. I'd been drawing throughout my childhood, so that's something that comes easily to me. I picked up electric guitar and loved that I was, I loved film, but somehow after I got out of school, I didn't dare to pursue something artistic and what kind of conversations I had with people that led me there or that kept me from maybe going to art school.
I don't, you know, that's probably for a whole evening to sort through. The end result was that I went into business school. I, I did five years of, of business studies and I did not realize, and I think that's a lack of maturity on my part as well, that the people I was studying with weren't really my people.
I. I think if people, when people go to university, the the [00:13:00] most important job they have to do is figuring out who are my people? In the sense of who do I want to spend time with in my professional life? Who do I feel I connect with? Who are the people who have sort of similar interests and vision of the world?
And. I felt, I didn't feel at home amongst the other business students. There was always two, three that I could connect with and I thought maybe I'm just demanding and complicated and I'm, I, maybe I'm weird, maybe. I dunno. So I just kept going. And then the first job, and then you realize everyone goes off to do business consulting or they.
Go into banks and stuff and somehow that didn't work for me. So I ended up in an advertising agency, which seemed, oh, well you have the creativity on the one hand and you have the business on the other, and you can kind of combine the two and every step of the way for 22 years. So five years of university and then 17 years in advertising.
I found ways when it got too frustrating for me to somehow make it interesting. Thing again, at some point I got a doctorate in marketing about a sort of word of [00:14:00] mouth and social effects in marketing. And then I joined the, the founding of a company that worked in that field. And again, I always found ways of making something that inherently wasn't really mine.
Still interesting. There was almost like this creativity that allowed me to find constantly new angles to make it fun. I mean, there was even a point, it's. Late in the process where I was again frustrated and fed up with it, and then I had the chance to run our Italian sub subsidiary. So I moved from Berlin to Italy, and again, a new way of making it interesting, but never changing the field.
22 years in a growth business, first business school, and then 17 years in various types of advertising and marketing agencies. And when we finally managed to sell the company between 20, 20 14 and 2016. I'd gotten to a point where I realized this can't be the job you do for the rest of your life no matter what.
So you found ways of keeping it interesting, but that's not where you can find meaning. And [00:15:00] you know, in the long run. So I decided to leave. I had some money on the side because I was, I had a small share in the company as well, and I could start afresh. And that year that I had put aside to say. What's next?
What am I gonna do? Now was the year that the Brits voted for Brexit, which for European, that was a watershed moment in the history of this continent. It was the year when the far right was on a steep rise in my home country. The country of the Nazis, the country of the Third Reich, the country where Hitler started, his horrific reign.
And thirdly, it was the year when Donald Trump got elected and. Finally that last, I must say, sadly, these days got elected the first time and that sort of those three events happening in one year. You can't look away when [00:16:00] you don't have anything else to distract you. Most people have very busy lives. You know, you have your job and you have your family, and you have the mortgage to pay, and you have the presentation that's due and the kid needs to go to the doctor and so forth.
There's always stuff going on in my life. There wasn't, I had no family at the time. Um, and I had no job. No one needed me, no one had any expectations of me. So I could not ignore the fact that the fabric of what I thought was a, a working world order was crumbling. When America elect someone like Trump to be president and I, I've had close ties with America most of my life.
I, I went as an exchange student when I was 17. I, I have friends in America. And when that happens, you realize, no, something is way off. And I, I had to figure out what was going on and, and then I went throughout the year of 2017, I went on a search to find out what the hell is happening in the world that this can happen in America, which is supposed to be, [00:17:00] was, I must say, was definitely not anymore the leader of the free world.
That's how we spoke about America and. It led me to Catherine Trebek it on, on sort of a winding path. I, I ended up in a one week seminar, uh, in a tiny village in, in Germany, and she was running the workshop I was in, and she told us the workshop was called Prosperity Economics. And she talked about how we measure prosperity and she said, GDP isn't working and this is the effects it creates and this is why it's leading us in the wrong direction.
And then she said. At, at the end of that workshop, at the end of the week, she said, we have this idea, we have this project. We wanna bring a group of countries together that form a different summit, an alternative to the G seven countries that say, no, we're going to shift our focus away from GDP to wellbeing for people in planet.
And that's, that's my project. And I thought, what a [00:18:00] remarkable story. What a remarkable idea. And I kept in touch. And then when. In early 2018, she said, it's happening. We're gonna have the summit in, in Luana, there's gonna be a summit. I said to a friend whom I had hired, we wanted to make. Film projects and stuff.
I said to him, look, Nick, I, we gotta go. It's not only that these people in Scotland are putting together the summit with Slovenia and Costa Rica and, and, and Scotland. It, one of them, this Italian guy went back to his home country and is joining politics and is bringing these post growth while being economy ideas, maybe into a government of a G seven country.
So these two stories, Catherine putting together, that summit and Lorenzo going into Italian politics, they seemed. Huge to me, pioneering projects that someone had to document and there was nobody doing it. So I decided, well, it's gotta be us. And that's how that started.
Cameron: And what are some of the [00:19:00] success stories of integrating the idea of prioritizing wellbeing, wellbeing and prosperity into economics?
Martin: I think on a national level for a long time. Costa Rica was a country that did very well in this regard without realizing that it was following a particular notion. It was more that it was Costa Rica's way of doing things, so they managed to increase the area of the country that was covered with forest, you know, deliberately.
That was a specific. Project they set out to do, or they built from the start a very smart health system, healthcare system, which focuses strongly on preventive healthcare, educating people when they have children at birth and so forth. Very early on about [00:20:00] how to, uh, nourish yourselves well, how to take care of yourselves in order to avoid high costs in the healthcare system later on.
And, uh, life expectancy in Costa Rica is higher than in the US even though the, the, the GDP per capita is tiny in comparison, like it doesn't even fit on the same scale, whereas in the US billions are spent on the healthcare system and people die earlier than they do. In Costa Rica, which is a tiny country with a tiny GDP in comparison.
So there are some examples where countries have been doing this incredibly well without wanting to, we know about the Scandinavian countries that have been very good with social services and trying to make sure that people are taking care of, regardless of whether they're, you know, career and work and sort of the capitalist economy is working well.
So there are examples of aspects of this. Working well in different parts of the world. The idea of saying, well, [00:21:00] let's collect all of this insight. Let's collect all of these experiences and these best practice by, uh, examples. Let's collect them and turn them into a proper idea, a concept, a framework for governments to adopt and pursue.
That's more the news, I think, in. That that we're talking about, and it's all anchored on this idea that we need different measurements. You know, Costa Rica has been counting their GDP and they still do, and they still want to raise it because they're part of the world that we live in, and so do the Nordic countries here in Europe.
But I think the switch away from GDP and to say, look, that's no longer helping us. We need these other measurements and we need to look at them. And then all of these initiatives that I spoke about and many more. Suddenly start to make sense on a holistic countrywide level. That's, I think more than news, but practices of the sort have been out there and the Wellbeing Economy Alliance.
For those who are interested, you find them [00:22:00] on the internet@weall.org. They collect all of this information, all of these best practice examples. They put together papers where they talk about ideas. They're starting now a a seminar, which I'm hoping I can join an online seminar about wellbeing economy policies to really teach people what it looks like when you do wellbeing economics, basically in politics.
Cameron: I guess initially, and some people still hearing this for the first time might think this is quite a radical change. Certainly an economist or a someone leaning far to the right politically might look at this and go, yeah, but, and in some ways GDP does keep the wheel moving, but we also know that. The quality of life isn't improving.
So from a, a human perspective, what's happening at the moment isn't necessarily evolving humanity in [00:23:00] the way it, it could. What are the hurdles we're facing? Like why are the un sustainable developmental girls not being prioritized? There is a very clear logic to include wellbeing markers in into these factors.
Why is that not happening
Martin: Politically, and this wasn't true when we started making the film and shooting it, but today, politically, we're moving. Uh, in the opposite direction. That's my impression. America has a huge sway in, in where the world is going, and they are definitely going in the opposite direction.
More money made more. GDP. Business, business, business, grow, grow, grow. So you're right, it's not currently happening. That's why I feel it's important to talk about this stuff. So people. Realize it's there, it exists, and it can be applied, but why it's not happening. I think the problems that we [00:24:00] spoke about that are connected with the GDP growth logic have become so severe that people are afraid.
In many parts of the world, people are scared. There's a section in the movie where Loren in, in the film, in the documentary where Lorenzo says, there's a lot of dissatisfaction around the world, both in rich countries and in poor countries. I think that's true, and the story that people know is the story.
As long as we have GDP growth, at least things will be better next year. I'll have a higher salary that's that's gonna happen somehow, and we'll be well off and things are going well. So the only narrative that's broadly available to people is the one that's got us where we are. And so the response is, I think basically there's two responses.
One response to problems, to fear, to anxiety about the state [00:25:00] of the world is to say, well, we need to do more of what we've done before. There needs to be more. That's the answer America's giving right now. More growth, you know, unleash the powers of the economy even more so that we can grow ourselves out of any problem we might have.
And given that we have finite resources on this planet and we are already exhausting them, that's a disastrous path. The other story. The one that says, wait, we can't continue doing what got us into this mess and think it's gonna get us out of the mess. That story is not widely known. So I think it's basically a problem of awareness and credibility of these approaches.
I think another factor that plays a role is that particularly the. Movement in eco economics that is very numbers focused and that try to make economics look like a natural science as opposed to a social science [00:26:00] has us all convinced nowadays that the economy is not something that humans design and build and mess with and can shape whichever way they want, but that it's something that comes like.
As a natural given, like God-given with its own laws of nature and we can't change it. So those two things, a history of we know how this works, we just have to do it better. And secondly, by the way, the way it works is God-given and we can't change it. That's very entrenched in people's brains and that's the hurdles that we are up against.
But you know, there's this quote, this famous quote, people attributed to Einstein, who's who, who supposedly said, you know, craziness. It is basically defined by continuing to do the same thing and expecting different outcomes. That's where we are. And if we keep on this growth path, which society has been on since for about 150 or however many years, it's not gonna get better.
So what else do we [00:27:00] do? And the film is trying to help with that.
Cameron: Yeah. It does seem we, we lack the experience or we lack the belief. That these ideas can come to fruition and produce both a viable economy and happiness. My work is often in a different space, but a very similar one. Um, and I draw many parallels from what you're talking about, and I work a lot within the high performance space and often there's people.
To have an approach, which is around achievement, achievement, achievement. I've got to win, win, win more, more, more, and letting go of that in order to find a higher quality experience, which then leads to a a higher quality performance is really, really difficult because it's so entrenched, it's so conditioned.
It's the way they've got to where they've got to. So there's been a certain level of success, [00:28:00] albeit not a deeply satisfying one, and within the field I work in, there's a lot of research now that suggests that when we do put the quality of our experience first, when we do have emotional intelligence, when we do allow ourselves to have presence over productivity and so forth, performance actually increases.
But it, that's taken. A lot of research and a lot of time for that turnstile to swap over, and it's still a challenge in certain areas when you've got older managers, older coaches, older leaders hitting the drum of 1970. Psychology. It does feel that whilst most people might agree with some of the principles you are talking about.
For them to take the action and to prioritize it themselves if they're a business owner, for them to start to look at their [00:29:00] business slightly differently for them to look at policies in a slightly different manner. It suddenly, a ejection of fear comes up suddenly does. For me, there's this like, oh, but, but what the unknown, you know, and how, how do we get past that?
Martin: Uh, yeah, that's a good question. I haven't really thought about it that way. I think the, the point you're touching on to me is this element of psychology, right? Like how we're wired and how we deal with un uncertainty. And I think everyone will agree. We live in uncertain times. And I think it's natural to say I'll stick to what I have believed in for the last 20, 30, however many years of my life.
And it is, it is hard to let go of that. When I let go of the work, the life I had, [00:30:00] it was easy in a sense that. I mean, just in terms of means and, and and sort of the, the ability to not need to work. I, I was lucky. I, I had sold these shares in that company and there was some money that I could rely on and, and that made it easy in financial terms.
Psychologically, I'm not really afraid of starting. From scratch and I did none of what I, I mean, nowadays it helps me to know a little bit about marketing as I'm marketing a film, but you know, I, I started anew. But I know that for a lot of people, it's quite comforting to know that they have an area of expertise, they have a way of doing things and that gives them confidence in what they're doing.
And I, the only thing I can come up with. Spontaneously to your questions to say, start in areas of your life. Don't, as they say, don't throw the baby out with the bath water, but just start [00:31:00] somewhere. And if you realize that on the one hand, I need to be the super performer in this company that I'm running and I need to be there for my people all the time, but you also feel like my family is suffering and I don't really have space to breathe, and I'm actually a political citizen in this world, which I need to be.
If you have these doubts. Do experiment with delegation and with trying to approach something like maybe it's not the four day work week. Many of these people work six and a half days a week. So maybe it's the, the five day work week and say, I can probably do this smarter. And it doesn't necessarily mean that I'm less available to people, but maybe I have to reprioritize, maybe delegating some things.
That I find incredibly hard. I need to just force myself through that and do it, and I know how that feels for the first time. Now I have someone who I'm working with and who asked me to delegate things that I've done myself before. And man, it's hard, you know? But [00:32:00] my objective and I have a similar objective and is ironic almost because I'm suffering.
From the same disease. Even though I, I keep preaching about this in, in, in a way if you like, is that I need to move on from the film. I've worked on this film for seven years. I've done other things at the same time, but working on something for seven years is a very long time. And if, and that's why I found a friend who's helping me.
Promote the film and I need to let go and start to create and design and develop new things. And yet I'm still probably writing a whole bunch of emails that I shouldn't be writing, that he should be writing. You know? So I know exactly what it's like to not be able to let go and to be afraid to let go.
But I think freedom comes from. Trusting other people. And I think that takes us to another, uh, aspect of this. The delightful thing that I find as I'm moving through this space is that when you work with people who have understood that we need to [00:33:00] profoundly change our ways and we need our economic logic to be changed.
And we need to find true sustainability. The delightful thing is that these people are always kind and friendly and not egocentric because what the people who, who work in that space have a focus on something that's not themselves. They focus on the world around them, on making it somehow a better place on trying to find solutions that work for the planet and for people.
And. I just said, but you need to delegate and collaborate and let other people do certain parts of the job. And you'll find if you open up to that, you'll likely find delightful people to do it with. And I think if you had the choice between working six days straight and killing yourself and feeling like you're performing, but you're also killing yourself and on the verge of burnout, but somehow the results seem to vindicate this [00:34:00] approach.
And on the other hand, you might be working four and a half days. In order to work less, you are engaged with more friendly, kind, inspiring, gentle people. I would argue that the net win is substantial over the other approach. I don't know. I've been making this up as I go along because as I said at the start, I haven't really thought about this question yet, but I hope some of what I said made sense.
Cameron: Yeah, absolutely. Surrounding ourselves around. Other people who have similar questions and is really helpful. 'cause when we feel that we're doing it alone, the brain will double down on on what it knows and fear will take over and will go back. So to be around other people and hear experiences where it has created success and in some ways it may have even created more profit or more growth.
Often when people. Humans [00:35:00] feel better, they perform better. And when there's higher wellbeing, there's more sustainable performance. So that can be an unintentional consequence, but at least it, it, hearing those stories and success stories gives us that experience, right? It gives us that data to be able to, for that, that individual on the ground who might.
Be agreeing with the, this logic, but not have the, the faith to put it into action can gain some, some confidence.
Are you looking to improve your performance, stress less and flow more? Do you want to improve the human performance in your organization or team? If so, we are here to help our team of experts specialize in helping individuals and businesses integrate high performance practice and culture. So if you want to take your performance to the next level, or integrate the [00:36:00] lessons and skills you hear on this pod into your leaders and teams.
Go to flow center.org today, the official site of flow training and flow coaching. What are the measures of wellbeing being used to prioritize wellbeing as a effector of success? What do you see being used across governments and organizations
Martin: mean? Italy, the. The measurement framework is called best, so that's which means both just and sustainable wellbeing. That's how they call it. I think the, the Scots actually, I think they call it. National Performance Framework or something in other countries, it has wellbeing in the name, but they look at, at a number of things.
They look at things like children's school attendance, like is it dropping as children [00:37:00] dropping out of school? They look at forest coverage of the country or the, the state of the forest could be one thing. They look at psychological factors in society, levels of depression, levels of anxiety, and if they're rising, then businesses are clearly doing something wrong if levels of anxiety are rising.
So that, that's sort of examples. I think two things maybe to add to that. One is most practitioners of this approach advocate a process in which the population of a country through. Hearings and through Citizens Councils and other instruments should be involved in designing them. If we give ourselves measurements that help us into a better future, we better agree on what they are, you know?
So one idea that's being pushed forward by, by people who work in that space is to make that a democratic process of designing these things. And another one is Catherine Trebek. You know, the Australian who is a [00:38:00] protagonist in the film, she told me the story years ago, which really inspired me. I dunno if it's her idea or if she got it from someone else, but it's really lovely because it shows you how you have to switch your brain around.
She said, just as a, as a thought experiment. How about we put GDP to the side and have a very different measurement of a country's overall progress and success. And this measurement is how many girls ride to school on bikes? Percentage of girls who go to school on bikes. And when she told me this, I remember we were in Costa Rica at the time because we were shooting part of the film in Costa Rica and I, we were in the Costa Rican jungle and she told me this and I was looking at the trees and thinking, what the hell is she going on about?
How does girls on bikes have anything to do with the performance of an economy and of a country? And it took me a while to realize that that's the very essence of, of what this is about. [00:39:00] If you count the percentage of girls who go to school on bikes, you are counting so much more. You're counting how safe your streets are that parents allow a girl to ride a bike to school.
You assess to what extent a bike as a environmentally friendly means of transport is a proper thing to use to go to school. You're counting whether or not girls feel safe, alone. Out in the city, wherever they may live. You're counting how many girls actually are, and I'm sure that those who think about this more have probably a list of another five things that you're counting that way.
And if you come get to the end of that list, you'll realize if we manage to increase the percentage of girls riding bikes to school, we're doing an incredible service to society on all of these levels because we seem to be improving everything. GDP was supposed to deliver that. It was supposed to tell us, well, we're improving [00:40:00] everything, and it turns out it isn't.
So what are smart measurements that allow us to improve everything by just improving that one number. Now, of course you could game the number, right? You could. You could bribe families. To do this and then they maybe take the risks involved and still send their girls on bikes to schools. There's always ways to game the system, but assuming that we don't do that, assuming that it's the context, the environment in which this happens is improving so that the girls do want to, and that the parents do want to send them to school on a bike, I think it's a nice illustration.
Cameron: Yeah, I think it's a lovely. Illustration. Well, Martin, let, thank you so much for your time. For people who have enjoyed your thoughts and what you're doing. H how can people get involved or get more engaged?
Martin: So we have sort of a two step process. The first step is individually [00:41:00] organized screenings. That's what's happening now.
Anyone who is interested in the film, and you can look at our trailers and get some information about the film on our website, that's purpose film. Very easy to find. And if you like what you see, if you're curious, you can reach out to us. We have a, a page on the website that's called How to Watch, and there's a little survey that you can fill out 4, 5, 6 questions and my colleague Juan gets that, uh, information from you.
He'll reach out to you and we can organize a screening. And that screening can be anything. If you say, I'm gonna get three of my best friends together in my living room, that's a screening and we're gonna help you make it happen. If you. Rent a cinema and bring 300 people in, we are just as happy to make it happen.
So any size, shape, and form of screening is fine, and we're going to do this because we believe that bringing people together and ideally having conversations about it afterwards, we're also hap happy. We're happy to help you find. People who, who you can put on a panel afterwards and have a discussion and discuss these themes like we [00:42:00] did on this podcast.
And then at some point we're going to make it available for, for streaming on platforms that we don't know yet. But it's sort of, it's a non-traditional approach to film distribution. It's not regularly in cinemas or on tv. It's through people who wanna show it. And we're grateful for anyone who comes to us and says, I wanna show your film.
And from that moment on, we'll be your friend and we're gonna make it happen.
Cameron: We always ask guests two questions, a book or a film that had a huge impact on you, or was life changing
Martin: in 2017 when I was on my. Search for answers. I came across a French film, which is also available in English. It's in English, it's called tomorrow. I think it's from the, the, the mid tens, 2015, 16 ish.
At some point it was made, um, French tomorrow, same thing. And it was life [00:43:00] changing for me because it starts very, very unapologetically with the statement of the fact that there was a. Piece published in a journal, academic scientific journal that at the rate at which we're going, our societies will probably collapse in the middle of the century.
That's not fun. A fun way to end the podcast with, but it, if you asked, and it did change my life in the sense that, okay, academics say that's, that's the projections for now. Well, we have to change that, don't we? So that's, that was my life changing. I think that that had a big role to play in my 2017 searching experience tomorrow, that documentary film.
And oh, by the way, I should say the makers of the film then go out and look for solutions and answers and so forth. So that's just the starting point. They're saying, well, we can't accept that, and then they go and look for answers for [00:44:00] tomorrow.
Cameron: Time to flip the mic.
Martin: I'm wondering, so. I'm intrigued by the concept of flow.
I've experienced it in the past, drawing, sometimes making music, but mostly drawing and in artistic pursuits that this idea that when I was a kid I would draw and then my mother would call me to dinner or lunch and I would hate it because I'd have to stop. And the world around me was suddenly intruding in the thing I was in.
And I love that feeling and I still have it nowadays sometimes. And I was wondering now when you work. Uh, on this and talk to people about achieving, hopefully a flow state to get to where they want to go and to be performing and still having a great experience. To what extent does the e economy and these questions enter into that?
Like is there an interface between talking to people about flow states and the performance and how to get the best out of life and out of themselves and the economy [00:45:00] that we live in? That's what I'd be curious about.
Cameron: Great question. Often the economy is never a, a front and center topic, but it does in weird ways, filter into the conversation.
I think when we look at finding flow, we look at prioritizing flow. We are looking at. Prioritizing meaningful action. We're looking at prioritizing the quality of our experience when that becomes. Important for someone when they're wanting to put flow first. Then we start to readdress, why am I doing, what am I, am I doing?
You know, why am I doing this for work? Why am I doing this for fun? Why am I putting my kids into school? We start to ask ourselves deeper questions about the purpose of, of what we're doing and why we're doing it, and then how we interact with. The world around [00:46:00] us, I guess, naturally starts to come into our consciousness and our thoughts and so forth.
And certainly one way of looking at flow is a, a beautiful internal state of harmony. And that cohesion and synchronicity allows us to have that deep focus that you talked about, where you lost yourself in the drawing and, and you just felt as one, and then anything like dinner, even though that's, that's a good thing, suddenly becomes a, a frustration, right.
And if, if there's any conflict externally or internally, that's gonna disrupt our ability and capability to find flow and to sustain a, a, a space of flow. So as people progress in integrating flow into their life, those conflicts need to be resolved one way or another. And how we integrate with society, how we.
How we interact with the, with [00:47:00] our local economy in terms of our, our family and then the, the, the world around us. They come into question. And I guess my role as a coach is not necessarily to tell people what's right or wrong, but to help ask those questions and to help people find what reduces the conflict for them and what creates cohesion and internal alignment for them.
And so. The parallels of prioritizing wellbeing in an economy and the parallels to the individual experience of prioritizing the quality of subjective experience over those highly attractive external extrinsic goals and gains, and is they mirror very well. And eventually someone might make that link.
But it's why I've enjoyed having you on the pod and to help, you know, potentially make that link for a lot of people who are prioritizing flow in their lives to also look at [00:48:00] that wider impact in, in terms of economy.
Martin: Yeah, I guess it's hard to have a right life in a wrong world if the world's objectives are not aligned to what ought to be, oh, what you want to be, your objectives in your life and how you want it to work, then.
It's a constant struggle and I think many people experience that and they realize the economy is telling us one thing. I mean, the way the economy is, is, is designed and oriented right now. And if we really listen to ourselves, probably like you try to teach people to do, they're feeling well, but my trajectory should be a different one.
So isn't it high time to reorient the economy in that same direction rather than that constant pursuit of money? Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah.
Cameron: Hmm. Yeah. And certainly when we get onto topics of economy, I think most people don't necessarily feel empowered to, to make an impact. It's like beyond [00:49:00] us, it's something for other people.
And then we realize through. Acts like from yourself that, you know, it's the collection of grassroots ideas and the demand that creates the supply and it needs people to prioritize it individually to then policies to change and so forth. And politicians need support and favor and voices more, more than anyone to actually make change happen.
And so it's, it is an interesting one, but you know, certainly I. The feeling I get when I talk to people about politics and economics is, unless they're working in that field, is, is that it's too distant. There's a disempowerment around people enabling change, and I think it's important to have these conversations so people actually realize the power of the individual has in these, whether it's casting a vote political campaign, or just raising discussion points.[00:50:00]
Martin: Yeah, I think there's. There's two sort of sort of pithy, pithy, little words that I, I, I think encapsulate this well. One is the economy is too important to leave it to. The economists we're trained to think that they are the ones who can deal with it, but econom economics is a social science. It's all about debating with each other what we think is right.
It's not, they made it look very mathematical, but that's only the surface level. At the end of the day, it's about philosophy and what we deem right and wrong. And then the other one is. This is, I think the mission that I see now is we need to make economics a popular sport. It needs to be something that everyone engages in and says, whoa, wait.
No, no, no. Just because you're saying this economic policy is right, because you've got the glasses and the tie and the suit and you look like you know what you're talking about. You might not, you might be driven by an ideology that I don't share and let's, let's, let's discuss it out. You know, let's, uh, so yeah, everyone who listens to this and thinks the economy is not something they can have a say [00:51:00] in, please think again.
We need this to be on everyone's agenda. We need to have a conversation about this around every dinner table. And so politics realize we can't just keep listening to those five individuals who think they know what they're talking about because they studied the formulas.
Cameron: So I think that's our takeaway.
Action. Have a dinner party around this discussion.
Martin: Please do. I, I, I highly recommend it. Yeah.
Cameron: All right, Martin, well thank you very much for your time.
Martin: Thanks so much for having me.
Cameron: Flow Unleashed, unleashed, unleashed. This chat with Martin brought up the possibility that we are at a crossroads. The path ahead if we continue, seems stuck, allowing the billionaire driven systems to push us toward deeper inequality and ecological issues.
Or there's the possibility of choosing a new way. [00:52:00] An economy built not just on domestic growth, but also on wellbeing. For some, there does not seem to be a middle ground for too long. The smartest minds have fueled the very processes that are unraveling our planet, whether in business politics or technology.
Not Adam Malice, but because it's either too difficult to turn the Enor enormous tide. Or they haven't fully reckoned with the cause and effect relationship shaping our world. Listening to Martin and watching his film reminded me that change doesn't start at the top, it starts with us. So the question isn't just about what kind of economy you want, it's about what role will you play in making it real.
'cause the future isn't something that just happens, it's something we build together. I. Thanks for listening, and let's keep pushing for a world where [00:53:00] progress means more than just profit. To learn more about Martin, please see the show notes.
Thank you for listening to Flow Unleashed. If you enjoyed listening, please subscribe to get notified when our next episode drops. The more people that subscribe, the better I can make the show for you. Equally, please leave a review. Your review will go a long way to helping others find this pot until the next time.
Thank you for listening to Flow Unleashed.
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