Martina Wegman

Cameron: [00:00:00]
Ever wondered what goes through an Olympian's mind just before the gun goes off. And how, an elite athlete prepares for their biggest moment.
Welcome to Flow Unleashed. I'm Dr. Cameron Norsworthy, scientist and high performance coach to multiple world champions. In this show, we unpack key insights on specific topics so that you are kept up to date with the latest science and practice of human performance.
Welcome to today's [00:01:00] episode where we dive into the mental side of preparation for high stakes events. Athletes perform at their best when they are mentally prepared. It sharpens their attention. Boost their confidence fuels their motivation and fortifies their resilience. But what exactly does it take to reach that state of readiness?
In this podcast, we'll explore the strategies that elite athletes use to prepare for critical moments, not just one-off events, but to sustain excellence over an entire season or career. We will discuss mental tools to improve focus, build confidence, handle distractions, and overcome challenges. Joining us today is someone who knows firsthand what it takes to thrive under pressure.
Martina Wegman is a world-class Dutch slalom, canoeist, extreme kayaker, and Olympian, who has competed at the highest [00:02:00] international level since 2014. Martina has an impressive record, including a silver medal at the 2018 ICF Canoe Slalom World Championships in the extreme K one event, and three World Cup gold medals in Kaye Cross.
She also finished seventh in the K one event at the Tokyo 2020 Olympics. Beyond the competition circuit, Martinez adventures have taken her to some of the world's most dangerous rivers. In 2013, she became the first female paddler to run Uganda's merchants and falls section Haring multi-day expedition through waters teaming with crocodiles and hippos.
In our conversation, we'll uncover the insights Martina gained from competing in two Olympics, switching between extreme and competitive disciplines and facing the risks of challenging rivers. We'll also explore how she and other professional athletes manage the often overlooked demands of their careers, [00:03:00] the travel, teamwork, and relentless commitment it takes to perform at their peak.
Whether you are preparing for an important life event or simply looking to elevate your performance in any area, this episode will help you be equipped to take on your next challenge with focus and confidence. Let's dive in. Flow unleashed. Welcome to the show, Martina.
Martina: Thank you. Thank you.
Cameron: So I'm super excited to chat to you today 'cause you've got a, a wealth of experience that we're gonna go into a little bit from changing codes as a kayaker to doing risky and dangerous kayaking to competitive Olympic style kayaking.
When we started. Talking and working together, you were fully engaged in more extreme kayaking and dropping waterfalls. For those listening who probably don't understand what you were doing, you're willingly paddling off a massive [00:04:00] drop, and to most people wouldn't wanna look over the edge, let alone jump off it, let alone be in a kayak going down it and.
That brings up that kind of fight, flight, freeze response, all that kind of anxiety and danger and risk, and what allowed you to be able to handle that pressure and enjoy the experience.
Martina: I remember situation where one of my highest waterfalls so many feet. I came the day before and I was in my normal clothes standing on that cliff on that edge of the waterfall, and I was super scared to even come close to it.
I was looking like, wow, this is like, I would not want to jump up there like without the kayak. And then the next day we actually run this section of river above this big drop. And I know that I had the opportunity if I wanted to run this drop or or not, [00:05:00] and. I never had any pressure of running anything, so I, I just decided, okay, I will run this river and I will see how I feel.
And then so I arrived on that same place as the day before, but now I was in my kayak gear geared up and I didn't even have to think twice. I was just, had the confidence and I think it helped a little bit that the river before it had a lot of smaller drops. So I just got more in the rhythm, and I guess just being in my kayak clothes, having my helmet on, being in my element, I, yeah, I didn't even have to think twice.
And even interestingly was as well. There's a small drop before 10 feet, and then there's a really small pool, and then there's this 70 feet drop and sitting in the middle pool, like it's really, really small. But I didn't feel nervous and I was like, I need to be, I need to feel nervous. Like it's, I need to have this [00:06:00] adrenal adrenal and it's not possible that I'm not nervous.
So yeah, I try and of course trying to find those nerves to, to go down this waterfall. So it's really, for me, it's really hard to explain because it always went quite natural and I think for me it was a lot of confidence and I think. Now what I learned from Solom as well is probably still the visualization and even the flow mindset.
It just kind of came naturally with maybe that anxiety or, yeah, still I, I guess there is adrenaline, even if I couldn't feel it sometimes. I guess that still gave me that focus and its flow mindset of dropping down big waterfalls or bigger things.
Cameron: It is something I really appreciated when we started working together was you would naturally so flow orientated, your [00:07:00] mind wasn't on the outcome and the, you know, it was very much about enjoying yourself and learning, and you had a really inactive learning or really kind of learner mindset, mastery orientated mindset where you.
Weren't overthinking too much and you were in it for the fun of it. And that was always refreshing. 'cause a lot of athletes, especially doing dangerous and risky things overthink, you know? And do you feel like you, that was just you and kayaking or were you like that with everything growing up,
Martina: up? I think I have to thank my parents for that.
I think it was quite in my up growing. I feel like. Results were, yeah, weren't as important. Like I think trying my best and even in university I felt sometimes like that my parents were not that interested in my [00:08:00] results or like having me, yeah, having high grades or anything. I think it was much more important just to try my best and I think, I don't even know if, if.
They were trying to push for that or anything, but I think that's what I guess my personality took up as well, that yes, I don't need to prove anyone. I just think it's more important that I enjoy it and be grateful for opportunities. Be kind and just. Having fun.
Cameron: Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's an amazing lifestyle that you, you had, which I guess brings curiosity as well as to them, why you kind of change codes that went more into a competitive format in this Olympic style kayaking of slalom, which is, I remember at the time, you know, it's a radical change you're going from.
Something that's more adventurous to something that's very technical and that kind of precision of [00:09:00] technique is ever more important. And, and then you've got the whole competitive landscape, which is was very different. Was it just at the time you're kind of on top of the world and couldn't really get much higher and this was just a new challenge?
Or had you always wanted to do slalom or for what reason do you. I mean, I, I remember what you said at the time, but for people listening, what, why did you make that switch?
Martina: First of all, we always follow through solo. Definitely know back in the days we were making fun of the solo fellows, so that's quite funny looking back now.
But I think mostly the challenge, and I think that's also with the mindset again, that it's not as much with about the outcome, but I really love to challenge myself. Um, and that's. Yeah. In a lot of things in life sport related. Mostly I would say even if I go for a hike, I, I like to push [00:10:00] myself to challenge myself.
Cameron: Hmm. And that career has now spanned over many, many world cups. European championships and two Olympics. What have you learned from being on the tour or for a number of years, competing consistently throughout those seasons?
Martina: I guess I learned a lot about myself or my drivers were, for me, it was always so important to have fun, and I think working hard.
Was a no brainer for me that really liked to push myself, go, like maximum. And as long as I had fun, it was easy for me to, to go to the maximum. I also would rate it as, as fun, like if I, if I reached my highest heart rate in a session, I would feel really satisfied. Then I would translate [00:11:00] it as fun, surprisingly.
But. I guess I have a good discipline that I like to train hard and to, to work hard and not take the easy road. So, yeah, I guess I, I learned that about myself.
Cameron: Yeah. And if that sounds easy, but I know we've talked lots about this 'cause it wasn't always fun and it wasn't always easy. Right? There's the, the constant traveling, being away from loved ones.
There's the training, training, training, training, training. Then there's. Team dynamics where you might not get on with certain people and the competitive dynamics, it's actually quite a challenge to keep that fun going. And what are some of the things you felt worked in that respect? Because I think lots of people would relate to that.
The more fun we have, the more engaged we are and the less effort and friction we feel with it. How did you keep that fun going? [00:12:00]
Martina: Yeah, you're right. The most challenges I had was when I lost the fun of pedaling and that's when usually was my hardest time in the sport. So, and that's what I, throughout meetings as well, learned mostly that I had to really.
Make sure that fun was my priority. And even like later in my career, career, I still could have done things better or like changed things, get more fun. But I always felt that I was searching a lot from people that I enjoyed hanging out with, which isn't always easy because you're reliant on them. But yeah, I realized that for me that was the easiest way was to.
Get myself in situations where I was with friends that I really just enjoyed spending time with. So actively trying [00:13:00] to search for that was helping me and vice versa. If I couldn't find that or if there was quite a negative environment in our team environment, it was much harder for me to perform. So this is probably one of my.
Was one of my weaknesses, I would say, because I really looked for that fun element from the outside, like finding training partners to just enjoy on the water, having a coffee with people I enjoy spending time with, but I needed those people to give me that energy.
Cameron: Yeah, when you were saying that, it just brought up memories of us chatting when sleep wasn't going very well, when you weren't having a lot of fun. Sleep became a bit more difficult, and I remember some of the weird and wonderful things you tried to try and get sleep up from walking on [00:14:00] pins of needles, the kind of the pin cushion, which I've still got it.
It's actually sitting in the office, you know, to stretching and relaxation and most. Of us all struggle with sleep at some stage the more stress we are, sleep becomes an issue. How important was sleep to you and what did you feel worked in the end to help you get consistently good sleep?
Martina: Uh, I think, and that, I think I learned more and more like in the off season or when I have a holiday day, is that I think my bed sleep came that.
I like to push my body that hard, that there's really like the physical stress. It's like really high because usually mentally I like I would fall asleep really easily. I didn't have any feeling that I had. Anxiety or anything to fall asleep. I [00:15:00] would just constantly wake up multiple times during the night and I, yeah, after I figured out that that really was hand in end with training, if I was doing via two max session, so like pushing myself really, really hard, 90%, uh, my sleep quality would drop.
So in the end it was a really useful tool actually for me to. Notice my training load and when I'm starting to be overtrained because my sleep would go down and I also would start to have some breathing problems. And yeah, I learned that the physical activity, stress as well, so trying to work around that and be more alert on nutrition and rest time between trainings and then like the sleep hygiene and, and everything was quite important to.
Try and minimize waking up too many times during the night, but it's, when you're an athlete who loves to push yourself [00:16:00] really hard, it's really hard to hold back. Like even when alarm runs ringing, all the symptoms are there. It's so hard to, like, the goal is to just hit those high heart rates as high as possible and to push yourself.
So, yeah, I did. Learn a lot from that, but also, I didn't have access to a coach throughout the whole year, so I had no one to actually hold me back when I needed to be hold back. So, and multiple times made the mistakes and was training a bit too much, I think. And yeah, it wasn't until much, much later in my career, I guess that I was.
Trying to or find out about those symptoms of sleep and trying to Yeah. Be a bit cautious with it.
Cameron: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And if I, if I can just double click on that point. 'cause I think that's a really important point. You know, most, most either elite athletes or [00:17:00] professionals have a system and a structure where you walk into and there's a lot of guidance there.
Something I find unique in action sports is a lot of athletes don't have that structure, don't have that support, and we're kind of lone wolfs trying to gather information from here, there, and everywhere, and having to self lead, having to self-manage, having to self optimize, which in itself can be exhausting and difficult.
And difficult to know what to trust and what to weigh up as more important or less important. What were the. The struggles there for you, and what were the wins that you came out with?
Martina: I think that has a bit to do with the personality of the athlete again, as well, because one of my driver was actually that I was really enjoying having the lead in my campaign, so I was writing my own training schedule.
I spent a lot of time training without a [00:18:00] coach, and I did learn. Like how to set goals for my session. And I did a lot of video review myself, like Ana, analyze, analyzing myself,
Cameron: Aly, and
Martina: I think I was, yeah, again, I was finding that the more I did myself and the harder I worked, the better I was getting. And actually for me, the times that, especially when I started to work with my first coach.
When he started to take over my training schedule, he took a little bit away of the fun part and also the, the bigger picture. Like I really needed to see the end goal and then like why I am doing certain things, like a lot of white, and then when someone else was doing it, sometimes I was losing that side.
So for me, I was [00:19:00] really grateful that I had the freedom to do that myself, um, and explore myself. And I think that is a bit of personality as well. And maybe the background I had as well, because I think for some needs, that's the worst scenario ever. And they would've no clue in, uh, what to do. But for me it was really empowering to just.
Find the information, making my own training schedule and have full trust that that was working. Like I never had that doubt. 'cause I, yeah, I choose that. That's my way and I was like, I try my best. So this is, yeah, I trust in that.
Cameron: I kind of felt that because you had that from the beginning, that you had that autonomy, that agency and you're like.
To do things Martina's way and you got to know yourself really well, you got to know your [00:20:00] body really well. You've got to know what works for you really well, and, and then when someone comes in to try and change that, or doesn't give you that same freedom, especially if you're not a hundred percent sure whether you can trust them or not.
'cause we haven't worked with them yet. Um. Can be, can be really, really difficult. Not just for you, but for for other athletes. And then many other athletes, I guess they don't get that autonomy and that personal wisdom until later in their career when they outgrow their coaches and then they have to sort of start reinventing the wheel and doing things their way.
But I remember there's a number of times in the last several years where you've had that conflict of, do I double down on my intuition here and trust myself and do what I feel is right, or do I go with what the, the coach is suggesting or the status quo is suggesting, or what, what is expected here?
Martina: Yeah, I, I think I try to be [00:21:00] open-minded as well, and I want to get the information.
But then I think that's where sometimes I clash my own personality. I want to get the information, but I want to have control over what information I'm taking out of that. So I feel like if someone is really just giving me a, a weak training plan and tell me to do that, and I have no idea the reason why I am doing that.
It just doesn't work for me. Like I have too many questions. I need to know why I'm doing it. So I tried it because I want to be open-minded and I want to get the information and learn and to see if I'm missing things in my, my, my plan, uh, on my preparations. But, but I want to still under control of like, yeah, seeing the bigger picture and why I'm doing that.
And then, and saying that I had a lot of mentors and people I trusted [00:22:00] who gave me information as well. Um, so it, it's, it wasn't, I was double checking as well and I was trying to find all the information to make a plan that I just fully trusted and what's behind. I think that was important for me to create that trust in that way.
Cameron: Hmm.
And what did you gain or benefit or learn from prioritizing your mental game?
Martina: I always have really enjoyed the the mental game, and I think it's one of the most important in sport. And I remember before we met, because our first meeting, I actually had no idea that. It was about mental coach or anything.
The first time we met, and I remember back, back in the days, I always didn't really wanna talk about it because I was scared I was losing [00:23:00] what I had, because usually in competitions I was actually doing better than in training and I was. Feeling like that was just a gift to me, and I was thinking that if I would overthink or if I would like talk about it, I would lose it.
But then, yeah, throughout meetings I quickly realize that it's the opposite, that actually you can fine tune it and you can work on it and learn even more. Yeah, I remember, especially for the worlds in, was it 2009 or 2000? 2021 maybe in Germany, the worlds where my confidence was pretty low. We did one session and I think that session just gave me the confidence to perform in the race.
And without that session, I, I probably wouldn't have been able to perform the same way I did. So yeah, I found the [00:24:00] mental part in sports so interesting. And also it's pretty. Cool to watch younger athletes. I think from quite a young age you can already see which athletes have a natural and which athletes need to push a little bit.
And of course I would say some athletes which don't have it and they really struggle with their mental part to, to step up in sport. So yeah, I find it really, really interesting and. I learned a lot throughout, probably about the extreme kayaking and with it.
Cameron: And are you willing to talk about the way you prepare that bubble that you create prior, or is that top secret knowledge that cannot be shared?
Martina: No, it's 'cause I guess it's. Everyone has their [00:25:00] own routine, but I like that I have a tool then if I have to race now, even if I'm super prepared, I can't get into that race mindset and race smooth and feel like, yeah, because we feel that I can feel like I can trust on that.
It's really just the last bit of my preparation for on race day and I've. Created a sort invisible shield around myself, which I jump into, and this shield has some cues. What is important to me, and it also has been changing over my career, but in that bubble I of song, which I think of before the start, and also something which I think is the.
Has been very helpful for me is, uh, Japanese [00:26:00] philosophy. And that is if you try your full best, you cannot be disappointed with the outcome. And that is because also in, in especially in style later in my career, the more you invest something, even though if you're not outcome. Focus, it still is gonna be a little bit more important.
It was a tool to take that outcome away and just try my full best. Like I cannot do more than fully go for it. So yeah, that were things I put in my bubble that once before, like being at the start line of a race. Yeah, just stepping in the bubble gave me all those clues to raise.
Cameron: Hmm. Yeah, just as you were describing it, I wanted to get into that, bubble myself into that, into that [00:27:00] place is a good thing from the bubble.
Martina: That's, that's a good thing from the bubble as well, that it's like a shield and what I don't want, I can block off. It's not allowed to get into my bubble.
Cameron: Hmm. Yeah,
Martina: so I could just choose what I want, who I want to get inside. But if I don't want something outside, I just, or inside, I just leave it outside and that's not important.
Cameron: And was that something that was a visual thing or was it something that was you felt and could sense or both? Or did one develop over time stronger than the other?
Martina: It's. Developed over time, but I guess we worked on that as well because I remember one of our earlier sessions, you asked me to pick a symbol to also get into the race mode, and I remember that I picked the symbol and a few races later because we [00:28:00] picked a symbol and then we put it into my body that I could like visualize and take it out of my body.
Before the race to get into in flow state and I, I, yeah. So a few races later, I, I wasn't trying, but naturally I was like blowing these symbols out or something. They were just like, all these little symbols just came out of me and I wasn't even trying, but naturally it was just, yeah, happened. That Timbo was we, we worked on that, that it was connected to like my flow mind state and getting into the right zone for the race.
So it was quite, yeah, a fun process to visualize and working with those symbols and then the bubble and like creating all those little tools and skills to develop and in the end create something that worked for, for me best.[00:29:00]
Cameron: Yeah, it's amazing how powerful that those symbols are and, and just that intention of, I want to create my bubble. I want to create my optimal state. And, and that intention of doing that can just radically shift all that whatever might be distracting, whether it's negativity or thinking about something that's going on over there, or what other people are doing.
Yeah, super important
Martina: and especially I think you mentioned that symbols are easier to translate for our brain or, or it's easier to think of a symbol than words, especially if it doesn't come naturally or you like scared for failure, like don't touch, or you know, those bad things that you don't wanna think of.
It's easier to just think of a symbol and you already have foods positive associations with it.
Cameron: Yeah. Yeah. And it's quicker to, to access [00:30:00] embodied states through visual representations. We kind of don't access or activate the thinking brain. We activate that kind of explicit cognition and that hot system and allows us to get, not only build that, uh, that state that we want to build, but also.
Be more hardwired to our motor cortex and the, the physical application of what we're doing. You know, really important in athletes. There's so many athletes When things get stressful or difficult, myself included, I, you know, tend to overthink and try to think my way through it or tell myself what I should be thinking and what I should be saying.
And all the time it just sort of. Thinking more and becoming even more overactive in our brain and kind of taking ourselves away from that really connected performance that that can feel so good when we get it right.
Are you looking to improve your performance stress less and flow more? Do you [00:31:00] want to improve the human performance in your organization or team? If so, we are here to help. Our team of experts specialize in helping individuals and businesses integrate high performance practice and culture. So if you want to take your performance to the next level, or integrate the lessons and skills you hear on this pod into your leaders and teams, go to flow center.org today.
The official site of flow training and flow coaching,
and. What advice would you give to a younger you?
Martina: A younger me? I think to maybe be more confident. Even top models. They're not happy with the way they look or their weight or anything. So even a top model is not gonna be happy. It's not because of how they [00:32:00] look or, you know, it's the mindset to it. Yeah, I think I. I would give the younger me advice to be more confident and able to laugh about yourself, not to try to be perfect or to be liked by others and just try to, even though I, I think I always have been myself, I think just the confident and that that's enough and yeah, just to, even if your fault to not be embarrassed, but just to laugh about it.
Cameron: I've, I've sort of witnessed you do that really well on social media. I think on athletes nowadays, the demands of social media and what everyone else is thinking and saying, and the comparisons are just so easy and so difficult for athletes to manage that world of social media and that place of just accepting how I am.
What do you feel has [00:33:00] been. Helpful for you in navigating that social media world whilst having social media responsibilities as a professional athlete?
Martina: Yeah. Social media, wow. It's a hard one. I guess I'm, I'm really happy that I grew up without social media that I'm super grateful for, and I guess I more saw it as a tool. To promote myself in sport. I guess always with maybe the mindset of the sponsors who could help. And I guess all of us now we on social media too much.
Like sometimes we just sitting on the couch like scrolling. It's only 20 minutes are gone. But I guess I really try to just use it as a tool to showcase what I'm doing trying to. Maybe inspire young [00:34:00] ones to get out of their comfort zone, get outdoors, get off their flower phones, and go outside, do things.
Cameron: Yeah. Wise words.
Well, in coming to the end of the podcast, is there a book or film that you feel has had a really good impact on you?
Martina: There are a few I, I guess I have to pick one. No, I think, I think mostly with my sport career like that, I would say that's different for life and for sport career and with sport career. I think the book my parents gave me before the Tokyo Olympics, and that was with that Japanese Phil philosophy, kte, and it's.
They say that they cannot really translate these words in any language, and they have hundred little stories to try. Explain [00:35:00] what this word mean. And after this hundred stories, what I got out of it is that giving you full best, trying your full best, you cannot be disappointed with the outcome. And that has helped me a lot in life, like in sport, like in the racing.
But also, I guess in a lot of things, like presentations, I used to be not the biggest fan of presentations, but then yeah, this model of if I just try my best, even if this patient presentation goes fully wrong, I tried my best like I worked and I, I did my best. So, and it's, it just takes away that fear of failure and it just makes you a lot freer and confident.
To give that presentation or whatever it is in life. So yeah, it's a really easy book to read. Like you can read it in, well, if you're fast reading you can probably read it in two hours. But yeah, it's, [00:36:00] uh, it's quite a, I think a nice philosophy.
Cameron: Yeah, you'd probably want to give yourself more time to think about it than the two hours to read it.
Martina: Yes. Yeah.
Cameron: Time to flip the mic. Payback time.
Martina: Yes. What was your biggest, biggest adventure so far?
Cameron: Ooh. Wasn't expecting that. My biggest adventure. So I mean, I've got visions of being held at gunpoint and sleeping in a jungle and having something that felt like a snake crawl across my face in the middle of the night and I couldn't see it. And you know, all the kind of jungle stories that you often hear, I felt like I went through of crawling pillows, events and so forth.
But I, what keeps standing out is, I guess. Being a parent, I think [00:37:00] it's an adventure like no other, you know, just when I think I'm uncomfortable, I become uncomfortable again. Adventures that kind of exploration into the unknown. I certainly didn't feel wholly prepared to be a father, and as that's probably an understatement, and it's just this constant surprise and wonder and privilege and uncomfortableness and.
Enjoy and challenge. That's kind of never ending, is probably why it, you know, stands out of the other every day,
Martina: every mission. Yeah. Nice one.
Cameron: Well, thank you so much for your time. Awesome to chat to you.
Martina: Thank you. Thank you for having me.
Cameron: My pleasure. Flow unleashed. Unleashed as we wrap up this insightful conversation with Martina.
One takeaway stands out, the power of staying light and playful under pressure. Martin's approach reminds us that fun is not just a byproduct competition. It's a skill to [00:38:00] master. And by embracing a playful mindset, we can turn high stakes moments into opportunities for genuine engagement rather than distraction.
This strategy helps competition feel like training and allows us to savor experiences that will remain in our memories for years to come. Martina also highlighted the significance of having a guiding philosophy to anchor ourselves amidst the chaos of preparation and competition for her. This is embodied in the Japanese spirit of ga.
Loosely translated gamb means do your best or give it your all. It's a deeply ingrained cultural ethos, encouraging, perseverance, resilience, and wholehearted effort no matter the challenge. The essence of is about trusting your own abilities and embracing the belief that the true obstacle lies not in external circumstances, but in how you rise to meet them.[00:39:00]
Martin's commitment to this philosophy serves as a powerful reminder. That mindset is the cornerstone of consistent performance. A way to ground yourself when perfection feels out of reach, and to propel yourself forward with courage and determination. Let Martinez journey inspire you to find your own central philosophy.
One that steadies you under pressure and keeps you reaching for your best. Whether it's the spirit of TI or putting on a flow mindset or a personal mantra of your own, he's guiding principles can transform how you prepare for and face life's most important events. If you want to find out more about Martina Wegman, please see the show notes.
Thank you for listening to Flow Unleashed. If you [00:40:00] enjoyed listening, please subscribe to get notified when our next episode drops. The more people that subscribe, the better I can make the show for you. Equally, please leave a review. Your review will go a long way to helping others find this pot until the next time.
Thank you for listening to Flow Unleashed.