Susan Jackson

Cameron: [00:00:00] Do you ever pause to reflect on why we really send kids to school? What are they really learning? Are they really becoming a benefit to themselves in society? And how do we create a system and environment, a culture and a classroom context that really allows kids to follow their interest, play with the edges of their ability, and foster the love of learning that is so crucial to tomorrow's world?
Welcome to Flow Unleashed. I'm Cameron Norsworthy and this is your podcast for human performance.
Today we embark on a fascinating journey into the world of Montessori education, an approach to learning that has stood the [00:01:00] test of time and continues to inspire educators and parents around the globe. This educational philosophy founded by Dr. Maria Montessori is not just a method, but a profound vision of supporting the full development of the human being.
Maria Montessori's story is remarkable as her legacy initially hesitant to pursue teaching a profession limited for women. In her era, she broke barriers to become one of the first female medical doctors in the 19th century in Italy, specializing in psychiatry and pediatrics. Her groundbreaking work began in 1897 when during her studies she observed children in Rome's hospitals and identified their need for an engaging environment.
This pivotal moment sparked her passion for education leading to the creation of her first classroom, the Casa [00:02:00] de Bambino, meaning the Children's House in 1907. Here, Montessori's method of scientific pedagogy took shape, emphasizing observation, experimentation, and respect for the natural development of the child.
At the heart of the Montessori philosophy is a belief in children's innate passion for learning and their potential to thrive when given the right environment. A Montessori classroom is meticulously designed to provide hands-on learning and foster real world skills. In Montessori classrooms, children make creative choices in their learning while the classroom and the highly trained teacher offer age appropriate activities to guide the process.
It encourages creativity, independence, and self-discipline, allowing children to progress at their own pace within a framework of order [00:03:00] and guidance. This approach inspires children to develop into confident, responsible, and curious learners who, who are deeply connected to the joy of discovery. And whilst many schools and organizations have tried escaping the mess and depowering strategy of old school rewards and punishments by offering freedom and praise, instead they need to find themselves stuck in an even bigger battles than before.
The Montessori method has successfully found a way to provide the freedom that individuals crave and the sustained learning and performance that organizations aim for. The Montessori method extends beyond academics promoting inclusivity and positive social development. It nurtures a persistent love for learning and equips children with tools to engage meaningfully with the world around them.
With over 15,000 Montessori schools and counting in 154 countries, this approach has become a [00:04:00] global phenomenon as we explore this transformative method. Today we're joined by Jesse McCarthy, an educator with over 15 years of experience in various roles, from teacher and student, counselor to school, principal and executive, and nationwide network of private schools.
Jesse is the founder of Montessori education.com and host of the Montessori Education podcasts. He offers invaluable guidance to teachers and parents, empowering them to foster optimal learning and parenting practices. Together we'll dive into the essence of Montessori education, discussing its scientific roots, practical applications, and timeless relevance.
So whether you are a parent teacher or simply curious about education and creating optimal learning environments, st tuned,
this conversation has been extracted from the archives and audio quality may not be [00:05:00] the same as usual.
Jesse: Flow Unleashed. Unleashed.
Cameron: Welcome to the show, Jesse. Yeah,
Jesse: thanks for having me, Cameron.
Cameron: Good to be here. So for those listening today, we're gonna be talking about learning and parenting and flow and Montessori education.
But for those who may not have. Heard about the Montessori method or who may have heard about it through the grapevine, but not necessarily had an independent look at it. How would you summarize what the Montessori method is and what is it about?
Jesse: Yeah, so this is always a challenging question. You know, it's kind of like, so he's like, well, what is Christianity exactly?
And you're like, oh man, what, what? How do I explain this? You know? But for those that really don't know much about it, I'd say if you walked into a classroom Montessori, what, what's gonna strike you as different is you're immediately gonna see mixed ages. So you're gonna see children of different ages all in the same classroom.
And this woman, Maria Montessori, she created this school from observing what worked with children. So now Cameron, you have [00:06:00] kids at home in a normal home environment, all the kids aren't the same age. You know, in the old days, people have five, six kids. They're not all in first grade. They're mixed ages at home.
And as parents know, you learn, they learn from one another, one looks up to the other. One might teach the younger one, that type of thing. So back in the days, over a hundred years ago, Maria Montessori saw mixed age seem to work better with children. They enjoy learning from one another. So you're gonna see mixed stages in a Montessori classroom.
If you don't see that, it's not Montessori. So that's a big thing. Another thing is you'll see a bunch of materials in a classroom. They look, some people look at this kind of strange, I mean, they're beautiful looking. A lot of times they're wood materials. You're not gonna see a lot of plastic, that type of stuff.
And the idea is there that children are just working with these materials as opposed to a teacher telling them what the world is all about. So they're kind of, I mean, I can go into all the different types of materials, but the idea is that they're working by themselves with the materials and the teacher is helping them or guiding them, but not the one saying, this is the truth about the world.
It's like, work with these materials. You might learn some stuff and I'll be [00:07:00] over here if you need help, that type of thing. And then the other big thing that you'll see is that, you know, you, let's say you've got 25 kids in a classroom, three to six years old, and they're all doing different stuff. And that's highly abnormal in any educational format, you know, so there's an idea of freedom within limits in Montessori that kind of is, goes behind the whole method, which is basically children can accomplish a lot if you give them, you know, the structures there, you got some walls, but within those walls, let them explore.
We don't need to be hovering over their backs every single minute of the day. So those are the three things. I'd say mixed stages, freedom within limits, and then those wooden, usually wooden materials in the classroom.
Cameron: There's this connotation that might often go with Montessori around freedom and giving the child this sort of agency and autonomy and a lot of parents.
For whatever reason, might be quite scared around that. As in, no, my child needs to go to school because they need to learn and mm-hmm. I'm sending them to school to learn. So to then [00:08:00] give them the freedom about their learning. Yeah. Why? Why would I, why would I do
Jesse: that? Yeah. Why would you wanna do that?
Yeah, I mean, I think there's two things that are there, and I actually really respect that of a lot of parents because I was in that mode. You know, I thought, well, what are we gonna have children's just running around doing, doing whatever they want all day long? And they're finger painting and who knows what they're learning?
And I think that's justified. 'cause there are a lot of Montessori schools, or quote quote Montessori or some Montessori schools that children are doing whatever they want. Or there's like really far off progressive schools that they just literally allow children to do whatever they want and. I think that's problematic.
So children need structure, just like as human beings, we need some structure. But the idea is that if you're being forced to learn, like us as adults, you know, we don't like that. Nobody likes to sit somewhere and somebody's forcing them to try to learn something. We learn our best when we're actually engaged in what we're learning.
So this idea of freedom within limits is about children independently learning about the world. And then it becomes like it becomes real. It becomes [00:09:00] something you love. It's a part of me. And then you build on that, and then you just get more and more and you're more excited, oh, I wanna read this, I wanna learn this math concept.
And it just grows as opposed to, here's the four things you're supposed to learn today. Learn by the end of the day, do this homework and I'll see you tomorrow. Like, it's just, it's dependent. Like it's all dependent. So, and none of us really want children like that. You don't want a child who's just like a yes, oh yes, okay, I'll do that.
But we continue to send children to traditional schooling when, when that's what they do. So,
Cameron: mm. And, and it seems very much, Montessori is a sort of a bottom up technique as opposed to a top down technique. The lecturing of, here's the content and I'm gonna implant it into you type education, as opposed to where's your interest and how can we foster and facilitate and develop that?
Yeah. And one thing I've noticed when I've gone into Montessori classrooms, and I've always been amazed and sometimes shocked how there's so much [00:10:00] concentrated attention. There's, there's this idea of freedom and intrinsic learning, but actually underneath there's this very rigid, disciplined culture.
Mm-hmm. Where. The kids are taught to put away after you've done an activity. Mm-hmm. They're taught how to, if they're in an argument, what do they do? How can they sort it out with their peers without engaging the teacher and so forth. And there's this buy-in, which I think is helped by individuals starting when they turn three as opposed to mm-hmm.
30 kids all starting at the same time. Kids are gonna drip fed into the commencing their school. And can you talk a little bit about how that, that discipline allows that freedom?
Jesse: Yeah. You know what's funny? You've got, I, I think that's a guy scheme in the back that I'm looking at on your wall.
Cameron: Yeah, it's actually, yeah, a lady lower, right?
A lady. Okay.
Jesse: I, it can't tell from afar, but I saw some, this I think will be an analogy here. 'cause I saw some video of a guy caught in an avalanche. I dunno if he was [00:11:00] snowboarding or skiing and he had that little, I don't know what they call it, but you guys pull something and then it lifts you up if you're in an avalanche.
Yeah. And I think the analogy with Montessori would be like, imagine I'm just like, oh man, I wanna go out and ski and I just ski this massive mountain. I've got no gear. I'm just think, oh I've, I can do it. 'cause I've got the will, I've got, I can do it. And you hop on there and I die. Like, or just really injure myself while if that guy's prepared, he's really work to get to that level.
He can even survive in avalanche. So I think with Montessori, people think of, oh, it's all freedom. Or there's some people that think it's all structure. But what Montessori says is, we're gonna give you some guidance as adults. 'cause we got a lot of experience. Let's not kid ourselves. I mean, children can teach us a lot, but they can't teach us everything.
We've got a lot to offer them. So the idea is, let's prep them kinda like the mountain. Let's get them ready for that mountain slow. Let's start 'em on a smaller one. I don't know what the, the levels are in, in skiing and so forth, but let's start 'em on the small one. And over time we're gonna help them, guide them.
But then by the time they're on that like killer mountain, the the, the [00:12:00] top of the top, they're gonna start doing tricks and stuff that we didn't teach them. 'cause all of a sudden we've given them that freedom within limits and then said, okay, now you got everything I can give you. Go off. And that's kind of the, the late time would be the world.
You're in the world, you're gonna show us something, you're gonna bring something to the world, um, that we've never seen. And as you're talking about flow, and this whole focus on flow is that children in Montessori, when they're given. Structure, but also that freedom, as you said, you go into a Montessori classroom and it's not like kids just say, oh, now I'm free and they're running around.
You can see them so focused like the kind of focus that's difficult for us adults to do like an hour doing the math problem focused. There could be kids, you know, singing in the background, doing some other things and they're completely ga engaged in their work totally in flow. So hopefully that works.
A little analogy there, but
Cameron: yeah, great analogy. And what does flow mean to you?
Jesse: So I think in this case, flow would be that you're so engaged in an activity that [00:13:00] everything else is like on the periphery. Like you, you are in the experience fully, you're enjoying the experience, but it's just you and what you're doing.
So you're not bringing in any additional like, oh, what's my mom think of, think I'm doing today? Like, there's just none of that. It's me and the activity. And in a Montessori classroom it's gonna be me and how do I fit this in here? He's like trying to do some material and he's fitting some say some peg into the hole and it's gotta fit the exact right hole, but this one doesn't fit.
And it's just like, you're so focused on the problem and getting it right in the moment. So.
Cameron: And how would you say the Montessori system and method is conducive to helping the child find flow in their learning?
Jesse: Well, one thing would be interesting, just stepping back, like you as a parent now, like let's say before Montessori or some friends that don't know Montessori.
When you think about children, do we think about focus? Is that the first thing that comes to our mind? I, I imagine, not for me then, but [00:14:00] I'm sure. So Montessori actually says children love to be engaged in things and focused and, and wow, I wanna know what this is all about. But we tend to think of them as, what they really wanna do is run around and eat candy and just play all day.
That's what we have this adult kind of fantasy perspective. Maybe it's 'cause what we wanna do all day or something, but it's not actually what children ideally wanna do. So monastery create an environment in which they can actually engage in something and say, wow, I wanna figure this out, or I wanna learn this.
And when they're given the right parameters in that freedom, they can focus on a, in an activity or on a work or on a problem, whether it's math language. I've seen children, they'll, they're right with this thing called the moveable alphabet in Montessori, where they're, they've actually just moving around individual letters so they can spell things out and they can be doing this like for hours on end, just spelling out completely engaged in their work.
And the, the Montessori allows that because, um, or makes that possible because it gives them an [00:15:00] activity that they can actually enjoy and learn and work on independently without somebody coming over and going, Hey, are you doing all right? Or tapping them on the shoulder or saying, stop doing that. It just gives them that ability to just can be completely engaged in an activity without somebody bothering them.
So
Cameron: yeah, I'd say I was watching my child the other day at a skate park and I had my heart in my mouth at the same time. Um, but I was just amazed how I really hadn't controlled, manipulated or fostered much. We just went there. I was at the side and he naturally started to challenge himself and then he thought, oh, that was, I can do that.
That was cool. Let me challenge myself a little bit more. Yeah. And slowly throughout this 45 minute period, the challenges naturally went up. So there was this natural playfulness, but there was this intrinsic [00:16:00] desire to find something more challenging, find something where he can develop his skills and develop his uh, capability at the same time.
And I think there's often a perspective from adults that we're adults we're more higher functioning, wiser beings, and we need to teach the children what to do. And one of the. Montessori principles and differing characteristics from other mainstream styles of education is that Montessori sees the child as a, a mini adult, so to speak, a capable autonomous human that's able to self-regulate, given the time and and resources, and has a lot to teach adults in themselves.
And I think for many parents, that's quite a big leap. There's a lot of trust there. Mm-hmm. In that process. And many people will be sending kids to school to grow up and become like [00:17:00] me, the parents. Mm-hmm. And how do you find that works in practice and for people who struggle with that trust?
Jesse: Yeah. And I would say, yeah, and I mean.
I would say, again, this is a reasonable thing that I think is coming from parents because there's an element of, again, we are, we've grown up, we've learned a lot. We know if we touch the stove, it's going to burn us, that type of thing. So I can see where there's a, there's a genuine and objective concern about our children doing something, you know, who knows what they're gonna do.
But then I think there's also a lot of the fear that comes from ourselves that, you know, what if I allow my child to do something that's messed up? Like it's, it's very concerned about am I doing wrong? Am I doing, am I doing enough as a parent? That type of concern. And that's where I think it can be become dangerous or at least destructive.
So we gotta be careful of that. Um, but in, in general with that, I think. What you can do, I think, is, I always tell parents, go into a [00:18:00] Montessori class like you did, Cameron, and sit there and observe and then go to the, the one that you're supposed to be going to, you know, your traditional daycare or school if you're in elementary, down the road.
And just compare what the environments look like. And then one specific you might do is say, how do you think a child is going to do if he's incredibly advanced compared to all of his 30 other peers and they're all doing the same activity, but he's way advanced. Or if your child is behind and he can't keep up with, say, the readers in his class level, it, one of them is gonna feel like, Ugh, I gotta sit through this.
These, I mean, these people are morons. They don't know what I know and I gotta sit here and just wait for all these other kids. And then the, the child who is struggling has gotta feel like, oh my God, I, I can't do all this. So you, you never hit that flow state. There might be one child in the class that's that the quote average that the teacher is teaching to, that he's, he's in flow because this is perfect for me, man.
It's just like, but in a Montessori classroom, there is no, there's no [00:19:00] ceiling. So the child can advance as far as, so as you were talking about, he, his incremental growth might have just like he's up there, there's materials for him, there's a teacher there that will adapt to that child. And then there's no floor.
So if a child is really, like, you know, some children, it takes a lot of time for them to read. Some children don't read until they're seven. When some Montessori children read straight at three, they're reading or four, and there's no floor. So if that child comes in the classroom, let's say he comes in five, he's late in a three to 6-year-old classroom, and he's just not a strong reader.
That's all right. Let's start you off on one of these books that I know that you're gonna really enjoy. 'cause it's about trucks and I know you like trucks. Let's go read this together. And they adapt. And so that child can get into the flow state without feeling like, oh my God, I, I don't know what I'm doing.
And that type of stuff. So you can adapt to the individual needs of a child. So that, like as your son or your daughter in the skate park, that sh is it he, I don't know if it was, uh, your son that was doing that.
Cameron: I was, yeah. I've got a boy and girl, but I was talking about my son. Yeah.
Jesse: Yeah. So then your son, you know, we don't need to push him off, you [00:20:00] know, a halfpipe or something, whatever that you'd doing in like, skating on there first thing away.
And we also don't need to be like, oh, oh, uh, let me help you on the board. And just really getting all antsy because he can't make even standing on the board so we can have a more trust in him. Give him the Barry, you know, the, the structure, but give him a lot more freedom to, to move in there. So.
Cameron: It's, yeah, really interesting.
And the two things I really wanna pick up on there. One is this often this unintentional limitation that we put on the child. I've gotta step in and help them, but just before we digress to that, your point around that personalized opportunity for education in that classroom. You know, the teacher in normal mainstream classrooms where you're teaching one thing to.
20, 30 kids, and like you said, you're, you're hitting that middle area E even if there is a middle, maybe there isn't. And so most kids are either bored or they're [00:21:00] struggling with it and they're just at one side of getting it or not getting it, or they've got it within two seconds and they're like, why am I spending the next half an hour listening to this?
Mm-hmm. So there ends up being this constant behavior management from the teacher, which uses up a lot of energy and a lot of time. And in comparison to a Montessori school, the teacher is more facilitator rather than a, a top down teacher. So there's that time to say, ah, I see Johnny. He's over there, he's now a bit bored.
Okay, how can I help him be engaged again? I think that's an interesting area of Montessori where the teacher is not seen. As a teacher as such, I guess they're seen more as a guide or a facilitator would, is that the case?
Jesse: Yeah, and I mean sometimes you can think of it as the guide on the side, or I think facilitator's a good word as well.
And you just saying that just brings it, 'cause I [00:22:00] was a relatively traditional school teacher and I was literally told you, we need to teach to the average because we, that's the only way it's gonna work. And I just find it fascinating that you said that teacher's like, oh my God, I gotta do behavior. It really brings down the adult too.
And I just think it's worth noting that for me, Montessori is not just about the children, it's about that adult spirit in the classroom working with that child that in a, you just see adults flourish in there too. It's just this, it's a beautiful environment. I mean, in good classes there's always gonna be some teachers not doing so well, but in relative nutritional school, it's always a battle.
And I think it has to be a battle because there is no way around. If you've got all the same age and you're trying to reach 20 or 30 students, there is no way out of that you can't reach them all. It's impossible. And I've done it and I've seen many, many dozens and dozens of people try. You can't. So I think it's good that you raise that.
I, I find that a really important point.
Cameron: So how do traditional education methods [00:23:00] justify that or get around that?
Jesse: I think it's the reality of, yeah, we're not, they would say, we're not working one-on-one. We can't work one-on-one with your child. 'cause that would be impossible. So we've gotta, we've gotta adapt and listen.
I brought in some really creative stuff where we group them into the A group or the, the orange group. And then the orange group reads one book and then you've got a class and they can see their peers like, oh, I'm not as smart as the other 12-year-old in here. And they're all the same age, so they should be, they quote, should be all doing this, but I'm in the pink group.
Whoa, we're called the lions. But it looks more like we're the weaklings 'cause the other people are doing this hard work. So there's always a comparative element that you just can't get around. And I think traditional school teachers genuinely believe that the ideal would actually be one-on-one. If only we could go do one-on-one, and that means one-on-one in a random classroom.
Just one-on-one. It doesn't mean with other children around, you know, where Montessori says you can reach that one-on-one. I can work with the child one-on-one in Montessori classroom, but then 10 minutes later I'm moving away [00:24:00] and he's gonna work on his own. And the environment allows that, where traditional environment just doesn't allow it.
So I think they've got a conflict intellectually that they haven't really figured out. At least that's the way I've seen it in my experience. Or they just don't think about it. I mean, there's a lot of teachers out there not thinking deeply about the philosophy of education and how it works. They're just going to their job.
It's like somebody pumping gas or something. Mm-hmm. I don't mean to be rude, but I mean that that is, that happens in, in education, you know,
Cameron: and I, I think it happens with parenting. A lot of people don't think about why am I sending them to school? What's the purpose of my kids going to school and what do I actually want them to learn at the end of 15 years in school and what are the skills and the capabilities that I want them to come out with?
And you mentioned pick up on my earlier piece of the teacher and also the parent unintentionally limiting the child because we've got to step in and that seems, I meet lots of teachers and [00:25:00] they all seem to have this amazing passion and drive and desire to help. And I see a lot of teachers. Burnt out. I see them just exhausted, often felt underpaid, often feel like they've got the right intention and they know what they want to do, but they're working in a system that just doesn't really allow it.
Yeah, and I meet Montessori teachers and it's the world's not, not to sugarcoat. Everyone has the stresses of a full-time job. Yeah. They seem to have a longevity about their teaching career or a relaxedness around. I'm not spending my evenings lesson planning every single evening and I'm here. There isn't this responsibility that I've gotta step in and teach these kids.
Mm-hmm. Otherwise, I'm gonna be judged. There's more of this trust that the child will learn if I facilitate it. How, how do you think that's happens? What are the pitfalls that, yeah, [00:26:00] people end up unintentionally inhibiting a child's confidence or self-esteem or ability to progress.
Jesse: Yeah. And that's super perceptive of you.
And I think that's par for the course in traditional school. And to have some empathy for those teachers, because I was one of them. What you said is a hundred percent true. What we tend to do is start to feel guilty. We're not doing enough, or I've gotta do more. And then you're up till one o'clock in the morning building lessons to give at eight o'clock the next morning, and it's just day after day.
And I think the best of us in traditional education or relatively traditional education, we wanna give our, uh, we wanna give our all. And as you said, there's the problem is no matter what you do, if you're in a system that doesn't allow for you to really reach children, you're gonna, you're going to burn out.
So either you're going to burn out and leave the field, or you're going to stay in the field and be one of those miserable 50, 60-year-old teachers who are just doing it to make sure they get their retirement or whatnot. Because there is, there's no, I don't think there's a middle ground unless you have a very, like, let's say there's a [00:27:00] very unique program that allows you a lot of flexibility and you start to try to integrate things.
You can get, you can get places with that. But the thing that you raised that I think is really important, and I felt this, that, where's that guilt coming from? I think it's worth, 'cause I can blame the system all I want, but at some point we have to step back and go, why am I feeling so driven to get these children to the point where I am harming myself by not getting sleep?
And I think there's something there where we can say, and I, I did this myself to think that it's, well, it's my passion for children. And I think there's an element there, but there's also like, who are you trying to prove something to? So I think it's important to look within, I, I tend to wanna look within to find my own problems before blaming everybody else, although I'm talking trash on the traditional system here.
I do wanna note that my big jump was to say, why are you, why are you doing this? Why are you damaging your own life to seemingly help other people? So I had to do a lot of deep introspection [00:28:00] along my Montessori journey and I think that's the biggest work we gotta do as adults and working with children.
Cameron: Hmm. And to expand on that, what did you learn? What were the big insights that you learned for yourself there?
Jesse: Well, one, one I would say, and I think you raised was that just there's an element of, I'm supposed to be accomplishing X with these children. 'cause every fifth grader should, should be able to know their what, a comma versus a period is whatever it happens to be, right?
And I'm not living up to that. So something's wrong with me. And I think that's the same parent thing. You know, Johnny down the street, he's able to read at five, but my child isn't, something's wrong with him, something's wrong with my child. And you know what that boils down to, something's wrong with me 'cause I'm the one who's supposed to be raised.
So once you get into a Montessori cons, the framework where. We're not worried about your child matching up with every other child in second grade so that they can get to third grade and be on level. It's, is my child enjoying in [00:29:00] learning and can he do things independently without a teacher always being over his shoulder and me being over his shoulder?
You start to have a different framework of what it means to learn and to grow and to develop and to actually know things. So like, I mean, I know I learned about cells and all sorts of scientific things in junior high, and I didn't really know what I was talking about. I could get an A on the test, but all that wasn't actually knowledge.
It was just filling in bubbles. So in Montessori, I mean, we, we don't have to go deep into it, but it's real knowledge. These kids are learning, like they, they, when they look at a plant and they can name that plant, they know those plants. When they tell you, let's say they've learned they're, they've learned how to read at four.
They can read things without just memorizing words. They can read new, they'll go out, you'll be with them as a parent. I dunno, this happened to you, Cameron. I dunno how old your children are. But you'll go out and you'll see a child read a, a sign that you've never seen him read before. 'cause he can sound it out on his own.
So it's the type of knowledge that a child can grow on his own without us [00:30:00] always being there to hold his hand. Doesn't mean we don't wanna be there with her or him to hold their hand because that's what we're there for them as guides and and helpers. But they can do things on their own without us feeding them every single moment.
Here's what you should know, here's what's true. So
Cameron: I imagine people are thinking, well, just quitting the system and going to a more boutiquey style education that allows you. Freer structure to be able to mm-hmm. Deliver better learning for one of a better, isn't it better to sort of stay in the system and try and change things from the inside outs?
Jesse: I mean, it's tough because it's all dependent on what your specific context is. I would say in most of the quote, public school systems in America, at least, it, you can't, you're not gonna change a full system by being a teacher in it. Like that's just not going to happen. And I don't mean to be, because I'm an I idealist in a very real way.
I think you can [00:31:00] change things in a massive, in a massive way, but you can't do it by trying to work within a system that is guaranteed to fail. So the way I would look at this is somewhat like, and I don't wanna exaggerate, but let, let's say you're in an abusive relationship and your husband or your wife potentially is hitting you.
You might be able, that person who knows what that person's history is. I'm not going to a big judgment about somebody who's, you know, vi violent in the home, but that person isn't, you're not going to change that person by staying in the house with somebody who's literally hitting you. You might be able to get out of that relationship, say, I'm done.
And 10 years later, that man or that woman realizes Jesus, I was a mess back then. And they call you up and apologize for the, the human they were back then. But you're not going to change that person while they're beating on you. And I really feel that the system is beating on teachers. Like you're in a system where your goal, if you're genuine and you're pure, you want to help children, you wanna enjoy your career, you wanna enjoy this, you don't wanna be a [00:32:00] saint that's getting beat down every day.
You, it's beating you down. And you need to get out and say, and then talk about what's wrong with it from the outside when you're actually working with children and helping them. And you don't have to go to a boutique, $3,000 a month school. You could go to the next, you know, a school that's in a lower income area.
They got a lot of private schools in lower income areas, and they're just not, I mean, they're not super beautiful. But then work there if that's your thing, you know, if you're concerned that you're gonna be like letting others down or something. There's a lot of schools out there that are not necessarily traditional school, but aren't super affluent or boutiquey.
You know,
Cameron: Montessori education represents the application of the scientific method to the parenting and education of children, grounded in detailed observation, experimentation, and an understanding of developmental psychology. It is an approach that seeks to align educational practices with the natural [00:33:00] development of the human being.
Research such as. The study Montessori Education, a review of the evidence base published in Science of Learning outlines that Montessori education adhering to its original principles may lead to cognitive and social benefits for children to understand why it's important to delve into Montessori's foundational observations and theories.
Most central are the four planes of development of a child that the education is mapped across to Maria Montessori identified four distinct stages of human development, which she termed planes each spanning approximately six years. Each plane encompassing unique developmental characteristics, learning modes and needs, necessitating tailored educational approaches.
The first plane occurring between birth and six years old, this period is [00:34:00] marked by rapid physical. And psychological growth where children engage in the developmental work of building functional independence. Montessori introduced several key concepts for this stage. Main ones being the absorbent mind, which is a unique capacity in the young child to effortlessly assimilate sensory input language and cultural norms from the environment.
Secondly, sensitive periods, windows of heightened receptivity to specific stimuli. Montessori identified sensitive periods for order when the child one to three years old. Language acquisition from birth to six years old, and sensory refinement from birth to four years old, and social behavior from two and a half to four years.
And lastly, normalization. A psychological state characterized [00:35:00] by concentration, joyful work, discipline, and empathy emerging when the children engage in purposeful activities that meet their developmental needs. The monso environment and classroom for this plan of development is carefully prepared with sensory materials such as sandpaper letters and activities designed to harness these sensitivities and foster exploration and independence.
The second plane from six to 12 years in the second plane, children experience a shift in focus from sensory exploration to intellectual inquiry, physical growth, stabilizers, and psychological traits like reasoning, imagination, and herd instinct for group activities emerge Montessori identified the developmental task of this stage as formation of intellectual independence.
And development of a moral compass and social organization [00:36:00] to meet these needs. The Montessori curriculum emphasizes collaborative projects, imaginative exploration, and lessons that encourage critical thinking and ethical reasoning.
The third plane from 12 to 18 years old is called the adolescence. It is characterized by profound physical changes associated with puberty and significant psychological shifts. Montessori observed these, this stage to include a search for personal dignity and a sense of justice, creative tendencies, and psychological instability.
Montessori introduce the concept of valorization. The adolescents need for external validation of their worth through meaningful work and contributions. Educational practices for this plane emphasize experiential learning, [00:37:00] community engagement, and opportunities for economic independence. The fourth plane from 18 to 24 years is a period of emerging adulthood marked by the consolidation of the individual's identity and their integration into society.
Montessori wrote less extensively about the stage, but emphasized the importance of economic independence and lifelong learning. Through the study of culture and sciences, she envisaged young adults having benefited from earlier Montessori education as prepared to influence and lead civilization through their developed sense of responsibility and capability.
So what. What are the implications of the Montessori method for modern education? Montessori's approach to education provides a roadmap for nurturing each stage of the human development. It [00:38:00] emphasizes aligning educational environments with the developmental needs of children, fostering independence, creativity, and above all, a love of learning.
This method offers an enduring framework for cultivating emotionally and intellectually capable individuals who are prepared to contribute meaningful to society. The application of Montessori aims to respect and enhance the natural trajectory of human growth.
What we've been talking about in terms of allowing that child a. To develop their intrinsic interests, allow concentrated learning to create meaningful learning. Do you feel that that is possible and let's say a private school that has more autonomy over its system and structure or, or do you believe there needs to be that kind of Montessori [00:39:00] philosophy underpinning it?
Jesse: I mean, it's challenging. I mean, I run montessori education.com, so I'm a huge proponent of Montessori. But at root, I'm a proponent of whatever works to help children and us as human beings. So Montessori I think is the foundational tool that I've found in all of my years and research and teaching, um, and experience.
But I don't limit it to, it must be X. But then again, I will say that at a core element of Montessori is just her whole thing was just look at the child, observe children first. Before we get into theories about how children learns, what, look at that child, sit there and observe and take a seat and say, does this child need my help right now?
Or maybe he does, but you need to observe first. So I think to the extent that your school leaders, or to the extent that the teacher is observant, then you can really help children. So I've seen all sorts of creative programs that I think are better than relatively traditional. Um, but that's not to say like you can go to a $40,000 a year [00:40:00] private school, prep school that's doing worse than some public schools.
So I don't think it's a public private thing necessarily. It's more of who's your administrator? Who's the person who owns the school? Who are the teachers in there? Um, how much are they actually observing children? Are they looking at what, what's interesting in this to this child? Or are they thinking, I've gotta get this curriculum down and I'm gonna get it down no matter if I have to do X I'm gonna do it.
Cameron: You know?
Jesse: Hmm. So.
Cameron: Indeed, there's a lot of pressure on schools with high fees to please parents and tick a plus stars, and which can often lead to short-term compliance teaching and rabbit repetition, parrot repetition rather. And it can be, it can tick the boxes but not be facilitated to long-term education.
I mean, up until my schooling of 12, 13 years old, I was certainly in that bracket of great education, very privileged. But I'm not sure what I [00:41:00] really l I'm not sure. Yeah, I know. And I, when I left, I, I felt very lost that I didn't feel like I had a backbone and a structure underneath me to develop self-learning.
And that concern when we're thrown into a world now where we. You may have 17 different jobs in our lifetime and our ability to learn quickly is probably one of our greatest assets. It's a really interesting question as to what do we want our kids to, to learn coming out of an educational system and what would you say is the Montessori's answer to that?
Jesse: Well, I think you just hit on it right there is, particularly in today, I mean, we just went through all this covid stuff. The number one skill that the people have probably been successful during Covid is that you're able to adapt, like whatever career you have right now, let's say you're an literally, I don't know, you've got an, you have to have an audience like I'm a live speaker.
You've gotta adapt, you've gotta start doing more Zoom talks [00:42:00] or else you're dead. Not, obviously, I'm not literal, I don't, that's probably the wrong word, George, but Montessori the, probably the biggest word she uses is independence and adapt. So as human beings, that is our skillset, is to be able to adapt wherever.
And I think if you think about, it sounds like your, your educational career was like mine and the, when you were a kid, if I'm sitting in front of a teacher and there, she's the one asking all of the questions and I'm giving the answers. There's no more questions coming from me. 'cause I'm, she's the one telling me what I'm supposed to learn.
And every day you're told, you sit there, then you go to science, then you go to math. And every day it's, this is the somebody else guiding you. Then you're let out into the world and told, Hey, adapt, figure things out. There's no way you're not prepared. Whereas a Montessori child, every day he goes into that classroom or she walks in.
I mean, it's crazy. But every day they have to figure out what am I gonna work on today? And if things aren't going well with the A student I'm walking past and maybe I get tripped up or something, how am I gonna [00:43:00] handle this? 'cause the teacher's not gonna immediately do it for you. I mean, if things get outta outta control, the teacher's gonna come over and help.
But at first she's gonna go like you did with your son. Lemme see what happens here. I mean, it's tough. It's like, oh man, I gotta, lemme, can I keep my hands off? And like, and then you see what happens. And so the children get a, a, a chance to figure things out on their own with a guide by their side. So when they get out, they don't have that guide anymore.
And it's just them. And I think they're much, much more prepared for the real world than sitting in a chair, um, next to the same age children year after year after year, and having a teacher talk at you. Hmm.
Cameron: You know, and I, I see around the place Montessori esque schools in the sense that there might be sort of Montessori schools that are very watered down, or principals who have taken a more personal view as to what's best and tried to implement a number of different.
Philosophies and so forth. Is there [00:44:00] a point where with any education system in any school, there's good schools and bad schools, and is there a, a, a, a line there where the Montessori system is, is not helpful? Or is there a sign where someone can go, okay, there's this Montessori marketing around it, but actually that may not be helpful in this case, or is it always helpful?
Do you feel,
Jesse: I mean, I'd be curious 'cause you, I mean you sound like a very, very thoughtful parent. How did, how did you do it? Like how did you know what was good or real versus kind of we put up Montessori so I can make some money off of this daycare,
Cameron: uh, observing. Yeah. I think and all the, all the little things.
Looking at the other students, uh, outta the classroom. In the classroom, looking at the teachers, how stressed they are. Talking with parents of the school and, and seeing [00:45:00] and just making a, a judgment call on can I see my child fitting in here? And it did seem quite structured at first when we went to Montessori.
And philosophically I was very aligned with it and I initially went and went, oh, it's quite serious. They don't seem to be having fun. You know? Yeah. Kids are supposed to have fun and being cheeky and playing and seems a little bit too serious. And then I observed more and found that actually the child was completely leading that focus and there was plenty of time for, you know, for fun in the playground and mm-hmm.
And all the rest of it. But there Montessori do call. The jobs work or jobs as job. And I think there's like a philosophical discussion there as to we're trying to have good connotations around learning, around doing. Mm-hmm. And most of us [00:46:00] have have negative connotations about work as some sort of extrinsic facts that we have to do to put money, to earn money and put a roof over our head.
But actually work is fun. Work is amazing if we've structured it into something that we're interested in. So it took my kind of head a little bit of time to go, I, I wanna see people giggling more and laughing more. Yeah. You know? Yeah. But then I go to another, uh, traditional educational school and there's just all this behavior.
Craziness and just so much distraction. I could see my kids there, but I just thought, what are they really gonna learn? Like, yeah, I guess similar to my kind of feeling and I, you know, I had this in university in the sense that I could, I could get a day's learning done in about half an hour if I focused and just did it.
And, uh, that's what I felt the, the difference of in that, in those hours at, at [00:47:00] the Montessori school, they would be getting lots of learning.
Jesse: Yeah. And I mean, a lot of things jump out, but the last thing you just said there for one is we know this as adults. Like we know we've spent full days doing all sorts of nonsense, whether surfing the net, talking to friends, then you do a little bit of work and you realize at the end of the day, like, how much work did I actually get done?
And that's what happens in traditional schooling. So I like that you notice that because man, we all know when we're focused on work, my gosh, well, we can get accomplished. So imagine that in a Montessori classroom. For just day after day after day. And as you were saying, Cameron, like the quote cheekiness or the smile.
So it, it happens in Montessori classrooms, but the children love to work. So yeah, they're gonna play, be playful with their friends, but then lemme get back to my work. And in a real way, I think the kind of the high achievers in any field, and not just like to show people, but we really love it. They work a lot, they love their work.
So I think there's some, there's an analogy there to us adults. And then also just the fact that you said, and I was, I'm happy that you [00:48:00] said it is, I just observed like how do you know if the school's a Montessori school? You, I gave you a few things in the beginning of what Montessori is. Then just sit in the classroom and observed, like open your eyes and see do they have mixed stages in this classroom or are they doing like, you know, oh well we're gonna separate out the older kids.
'cause parents want their kids to be with older, other older. Do they actually have mixed stages as you said? Do you, do you see your child in this classroom enjoying her life? Do you see her growing and learning, or do you see her sitting on a chair just faded? Just done. So I think a lot of this, I'm all about independence.
So when people say this is exactly what you need to do to find a school, I think we gotta get back to us having confidence in ourselves as unique individuals, getting some guidance. I've been doing this for many years and give you some guidance, but at the end of the day, it's gotta be you, Cameron, or another parent sitting there saying, I'm gonna sit in this classroom for 45 minutes and just observe.
I'm not gonna go on what Jesse says, or Cameron or some other quote expert. I, I'll take their guidance. Yeah. But [00:49:00] then I'm gonna make a decision and observe. So I think it's great that you highlighted your observation in the classroom. So,
Cameron: yeah, and just doing that I think is very difficult for a lot of people.
Yeah. They're so stressed out, so busy. People often choose the schools based on where they live. Um, and just something easy and just taking that time out to, which isn't really a lot, you know, you're talking about four hours, two hours at one school, two hours at another school, and including the commuting and the rest of it.
And, but for some people, they can't take that time off work or they think that they can't or they don't prioritize it or what have you. Or in reality they can't. And, but I guess nowadays there's also a lot of information on the internet as well.
Do you want to help others unleash their performance? Do you want an internationally recognized accreditation to stand out amongst the crowd? Or do you want The playbook I [00:50:00] use every day when helping professionals to be their best and find their flow when it matters most. If this sounds interesting, join others who are training to become a high performance coach.
We are on a mission to train a fellowship of expert practitioners and coaches to work with us and help make the world a better place. To find out more, go to flow coaching federation.org and check out the Flow Coach accreditation today. For those who may not even want to engage in the Montessori method or way of learning, how can it be used to reduce stress at home?
You know, I meet so many parents who are just so stressed and they love their kids, but they also love not being with them. Yeah, and there's this, the privilege of being a parent seems worn down. Yeah. And, uh, generally that in my experience, it just [00:51:00] comes from just too much stress. And how can this sort of, the Montessori method or principles be injected into the household?
Jesse: Yeah, and I, I mean, I have a huge amount of empathy for this, and I, I don't know if traditionally Montessori would have a lot to offer because, or at least the Montessori movement, because traditionally there hasn't been an emphasis on helping parents. So that's probably, that's one of the reasons why I really wanted to get involved in helping adults because the focus is on, we've got these angel children, you know, and we're, we're the obstacles in their way.
So, I mean, that already makes you feel like you're, you're, you're bad. There's something wrong with you as an adult. So one thing I would say is you gotta acknowledge your own emotions as an adult. I don't want to be with my child right now. And that is okay. I don't know a single Montessori teacher that's a great Montessori teacher that doesn't feel that at times.
And, and if somebody's listening who is, please call me. I [00:52:00] wanna speak with you, because I, that sounds very unhealthy to me. You know, it's like, I love my wife, but I do not wanna be with her every minute of the day. That's crazy. But if you think about it, Cameron, I don't know if we think about this explicitly, but the ideal would be if you did.
'cause a good parent loves being around their child, you know, it's just this, it, it's a false ideal. So I think just as we have a false ideal about what children should be doing at this or that time, we have the, we're holding up this false ideal for us as, as parents, as, as teachers. And I think the first thing to step back and just allow that emotion out, I wanna kill him right now.
He's, he's pissing me off. That's okay. Maybe it's your fault, maybe it's his fault. Who knows? But you gotta allow that emotion first. I mean, we're not even allowing ourselves to have that emotion. Guilt immediately comes in. So I think that's, if you get that step, if you're allowed to just feel what you're feeling, that that's a huge start in just being more aware of yourself, more aware of maybe your child.
Now I [00:53:00] can kind of see my child now 'cause I've gotten my own stuff out. And then you can observe and be more what I would say Montessori like, which is just being super observant of yourself and your child. So I think that would be a good start.
Cameron: Yeah, I think it's an authentic place to move forwards from.
And I think so much mirrors with the child. Thankfully I've got a wife who's amazing at this, but you know, we'll the kids will have a tantrum and then suddenly in my brain at least, that wiring kicks in and I'm like. Oh, how can I control this? How can I make sure that solve it? This doesn't look bad in front of other people or how, you know, how, what something's wrong?
And then I go, actually, there's nothing wrong. They're just working things out and, and I've gotta work with this process as opposed to try and control the outcome. Mm-hmm. And easier said than done at home, as opposed to being in the supermarket. But the exact same things [00:54:00] apply and, and like you said, there's that awareness of what should be the case?
What needs to be there? If my child's tantruming in the supermarket, can I just let the child tantrum and just work through their emotions, or should I be intervening and saying, no, this isn't the right way to behave. Yeah.
Jesse: Yeah. I mean the, the shoulds sounds like the, I, there's a famous psychologist, Karen Hoey from way back in the day.
She's long deceased, but she called this the tyranny of the shoulds. And I think that's an interesting way to look. I mean, there are definitely some shoulds that in life that are probably really good that we have, you know, but most of them I think today is like, I should be que whenever you feel a strong should, I would question it and then maybe, I mean, and another thing is Cameron, let's say either way you do in the supermarket, it's an experiment you don't know.
How many times has this occurred to you? Like, we have to experiment as adults with children. So maybe one day you're thinking, oh, I'll talk to 'em. Then you realize, well, why am I having a 10 minute discussion with a [00:55:00] 3-year-old about emotions? They don't even know, you know, what a what, you know how, how delight turns on, you know what I'm saying?
Like, so we just, we don't know a lot. We have to experiment and be okay with that. I think it, it's, and as you, you've been talking about the whole time, it's not easy. This process is like, for most of us, this is a lifetime of growth. So you're thrown into this situation. You have a child, and all of a sudden you think you're.
Supposed to help this child to grow, but at the same time, you are having to grow like exponentially. So it's just giving yourself a break and looking at it like, I'm not gonna get everything right. I'm gonna have to experiment. So, but it's, again, it's easier said than done because that guilt is heavy.
That's stress is heavy. That concern about what other people think is your noting is heavy. So it's just you gotta load, you know?
Cameron: Yeah. Which brings me nicely onto two quotes that I think have put on your website to the child developing harmoniously and the adult improving himself [00:56:00] at his side, make a very exciting and attractive picture.
Yeah. And one becomes a well-balanced adult. Only if one has fully been a child. Both Maria and Montessori quotes both suggest that there's a responsibility that lies with the parent to develop as much as the child and both. In terms of what you said and giving ourselves that level of self-acceptance that we are developing, we are learning.
And where with that becomes a softer approach in the moment as, but also as well as not going to that place where I'm the adult I know best.
Jesse: Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, you hit it with the self-acceptance. If I think about the best people in, in, in all their different fields, it's this, oh wow, I messed up to, I got that wrong.
I hadn't seen that before. And then you just, you adapt and you utilize what you learn for your next step. And the more that we can do that, the stronger we become in our careers and our [00:57:00] relationships and everything in life. So I don't think Montessori is not just about the classroom. So I'm happy you raised that part at the end there.
Yeah. What practically
Cameron: would you suggest people I. Do in their households. Let's say the kids are just one or two and school and pre-kinder
Jesse: away, away. You know, this is also context dependent on how old your child is, where they're at and so forth. But one thing I can tell you for sure, no matter how old a child is, if they're living in your house, there's an emotional element that's, I want to be like dad, or I like, I want to be like mom, you know, or I want to, I want to be, I want to be able to do these things that these big grownups are doing.
Whether your 15-year-old tough son is saying that or not is not the point. Or whether you 2-year-old who doesn't know how to say it is saying it, they feel it. So the more that you can involve them in things that you might think, oh, they couldn't do this, try it. You know? So if a [00:58:00] 2-year-old, I've seen a 2-year-old literally make coffee for his dad.
I mean, it was a Keurig machine, but I mean, it was, it's you, you're just looking out like this is not a two-year-old. Like, yeah, this is, it's incredible. And then you can think of an older child. Maybe you're fixing your car, whatever you like to do handy work or so forth, have them come over at a very young age.
I mean, you, it sounds like you deal a lot with sports. So I'm assuming all sorts of people in the sports field that they start their children working with them just for fun at the beginning. And these kids that like by six, they're better skaters than I am ever I'm ever gonna be in my life. So just no limits.
And then the more that we can involve them in things that we love doing, the more they're gonna love doing that thing. Or they're gonna find some other passion of their own and go at it. Like you go at it. But I think the danger there, or the difficulty there is a lot of people haven't yet found their passion.
Mm. So I, I would even say if you love cooking in the house on your free time, that's your passion for now. Don't worry about, you've gotta find your ideal career and oh my God, do the little things you love and [00:59:00] it will build up. At least that's what I've found.
Cameron: I think that's a really important point, and I'm keen that this sort of chat or pod doesn't get labeled as a parenting pod, but is very much applicable to everyone, you know?
Oh, yeah. And I, I guess what we're talking about here is how do we learn and how do we manage ourselves in that process? When I look back at my life, I've learned the most when. I've been really excited about this business and I just wanted to make it work. I wanted to help people get what I was so passionate about and I didn't know anything about the context or the skills to develop that, but I just put my head down and, and I learn.
I learn how to build a website in a week when there's degrees that take three years, and that really opened my eyes to, huh, okay. So actually [01:00:00] I learn that there's parameters to how I learn best and there's parameters to creating a scaffolding environment where we can learn. I think one of the reasons why rock climbing is when people get into it, they find it so engaging and there's so many rock climbing centers around the world is because there's this like unlimited.
Opportunity for a new route. But there's all this incremental gains and scaffold learning where you can just push out of your comfort zone, get it, feel great, get that reward, move to the next one. And how would you suggest an adult, let's say, who's listening to this for the first time and going, oh, I, I really need to rethink education, but also for myself, I've got another 40 years left in my life, for example, how do I approach my next 40 years?
Jesse: Yeah. And I like that rock climbing analogy. And I think of, we were talking about kids looking up to adults and [01:01:00] saying, oh, I want to be like that. There's something about. At least I saw this with me with rock climbing is, remember when I first got to, was looking up at this wall, this is one of those, you know, big fake walls and they're like, oh my God, that the top of that looks insane.
You know? So you've got this, you've got this kind of goal. You don't know exactly what it's gonna take to get there. But, and then as you said, that they'll have little incremental ways in which you could potentially get up there if you're going on an e quote, easier route. So you see what you'd love to, I'd love to reach that, but you've got the incremental ways to get there.
So I think one thing that holds down a lot of people, and I don't know if this podcast is all about people that have already made it and they're already at the top, but what I found with, particularly with the younger people, and I did it myself, is that I should be at the top. Why am I still down here? I should know my passion.
Why am I still down here with nothing? If we could just say, yeah, one day. I'll find something I'm stoked on, like completely stoked. Like, and, and we know with flow it does, you don't have to be in Michael Jordan. You could be the Michael Jordan of your own thing in your own little realm, [01:02:00] whatever it happens to be.
Fixing computers, doing whatever the, the thing is, one day I'll know how to make a website, but right now I don't know what the hell I'm doing. So I gotta start with, I don't know, do I Google how to make a website? You know what I'm saying? So if we can acknowledge that we definitely want to be passionate about some career one, but at the same time know that it is literally impossible to re achieve that tomorrow, then start small.
And it's kind of cliche, but that's really, I don't think there's any other way, but I think sometimes what happens is all of that self-doubt or that desire or comparison, oh my God, I'm not there. It all starts to flood and it doesn't allow you to just reach up on that, that easy first thing to get moving because you're busy thinking about, oh my God, I'm gonna reach this small one when that guy's got the top one.
Know. So if, it's a lot of work to get outta that mindset, but if you can just reach for that small one first and ke and then reach for the second one, all of a sudden as you, you start to feel good and then all of a sudden you get some momentum, you're like, it doesn't matter. I'm having fun on the third, the third [01:03:00] run.
You know, so that's, I don't know if that's super helpful, but that, it might be a little cliche, but that's, you gotta start at the first, I don't know if you call it, and we rock climbing, but the first rung maybe,
Cameron: yeah, there's so much wasted space, time, thought, energy put towards, I need to be x, I need to be way ahead.
Rather than if we just put all that time, energy, thought process just on the next step, then, then life would be a lot less stressful, I think. So I really appreciate your time and, and I don't wanna take up too much more time. How would you communicate the three pillars to a Montessori approach if you were to just pick three?
Three pillars,
Jesse: just to put you into that. Well, I mean, pressure kicker. Yeah. So I gave you the three ones of what you might look for if you're actually in a Montessori classroom. The three pillars, one is definitely gonna be observation. So you, we, I think all of us as [01:04:00] human beings, I, I'll at least speak for myself.
I need to get better at observing. The more I can observe, the better I'm going to be. So as the, the, the most basic is a child is looking out at the street, he crosses in the middle of a red light because he's looking, but he doesn't really know what red means yet, or that red light. So he, that's dangerous for us.
We need to just get better at observing our world around us without bringing in the baggage. So Montessori is all about this Montessori method is all about, I'm gonna go in, I'm gonna sit on my hands. I'm not gonna judge anything. And that's tough. 'cause we all, I mean, I want to jump in and just start judging things, you know.
I wanna fix things like you, I wanna jump in, I gotta fix this. Let me sit on my hands and just look. So whether it's with children or whether it's at your job and you're seeing an argument, what's actually being said? What am I seeing versus what do I feel? I see, oh, that guy's an asshole. Well, did did you see?
What did he do? Well, I just know I don't like it. So you didn't [01:05:00] observe you, meanwhile, you're in your head. So observation, I would say is the biggest, I would almost say three times observation. One internally, one out there at the world, and then one at children. I mean, I, I really think at the end of the day, and Montessori would say this, look at the child, just all my life, that's all I've been doing is telling people, look at the child.
And meanwhile, it's funny, Cameron, because sometimes I get a little bit worked up with the Montessori movement, and Maria Montessori did herself because she'd say, I, she said this to a big audience. She said, I keep pointing at the child. You keep looking at my finger and she said, like, dogs. So she told her followers that you guys would be coming.
It's like she didn't say it's a cult, but it's like you just follow. So look at the child. That's that, that, that element of independence for us. We're not just helping children be independent, we need to be more independent. Observe, look. So that's what I would say. I mean off the cuff here.[01:06:00]
Cameron: Fantastic. And personally, is there a book or film that has changed your life?
Jesse: Well, that's a tough question because I think my book is controversial because a lot of people tend to think the author, there's something bad about her and so forth. But whatever the case, my, the book that I first read and, and just fell in love with was called the Fountain Head.
By Ayn Rand. And there's all sorts of political views that people get. It's got nothing to do with politics, but the man in that, it was the first time I ever saw a guy who just, he said, what am I interested in? Whether you like everything else there or not. But it was just like, I like architecture. And he just would look at things, go, oh, I wanna change this, I wanna change that.
And he was just very focused on, can I accomplish this task? Can I do this? And it was just the first time I saw someone as a hero that was just very focused on what do I like to do? And let me go learn and let me get better. And it, it just really had a huge impact on me. And, and it was one of those books where it was like, and after that I thought, man, I gotta [01:07:00] read some more.
And then I just became a voracious reader and I was at 17 and now like, I mean, these aren't my bookshelves. I'm at my mom's house, funny enough, visiting her in Florida to say hi. But my, I just have books galore and I just, I love to learn now. And that book's kind of started it off for me in a big way. So.
Cameron: Great stuff, and that message of being follow that interest and learning rapidly, just from that pure fascination and concentrated attention sort of really sums up the whole pod nicely. So thank you very much, Jesse, for your time. Thank you very much. It's been fun talking, so appreciate it. Flow unleashed.
Unleashed. This chat with Jesse reminded me of the importance of how the Montessori approach, not just in education, but in how we interact with children in general. The essence of Montessori education is a scientifically grounded approach that nurtures independence, curiosity, and deep respect for each child's natural development.
Montessori's philosophy is built on the belief that every child [01:08:00] has an innate drive to learn and explore, and that education should honor and support this natural tendency in this manner, kids are not treated as lesser beings that earn the right to be better and be treated as equals when they become an adult.
Rather, they're seen as many adults from the start who have their own innate wisdom and gifts to offer the world. At its core, Montessori education offers mixed age classrooms that foster peer learning and collaboration, child-led activities chosen from a thoughtfully prepared environment, uninterrupted blocks of work time to promote focus and deep engagement.
Hands-on discovery-based learning through specialized materials, freedom within limits, balanced with guidance from trained educators. And lastly, a commitment to intrinsic motivation where learning is not driven by rewards or grades, but by genuine interest and joy. [01:09:00] Montessori environments are carefully designed to meet the developmental needs of each age group and individual child, encouraging independence and self-discovery.
In these spaces, children grow not only as learners, but as whole individuals developing their social, emotional, and intellectual capabilities. Maria Montessori envisage education is a path to peace. Believing that nurturing children in environments of respect and freedom could lead to a more harmonious world.
As she said, one becomes a well-balanced adult only if one has fully been a child. Our role, whether as educators, parents, or mentors, profoundly impacts a child's growth. Dr. Heim Geno captures this responsibility beautifully in the quote. I've come to a frightening conclusion that I am the decisive element in the classroom or home.[01:10:00]
It's my personal approach that creates the climate. It's my daily mood that makes the weather. I possess a tremendous power to make a child's life miserable or joyous, and I can be a tool of torture or an instrument of inspiration.
And as we navigate our roles in shaping young minds, let us strive to be that instrument of inspiration. Montessori reminds us that fostering a child's love of learning and respect for their individuality has the potential to transform not only the child, but the world they inhabit.
If you want to find out more about Jesse McCarthy, please see the show notes.
Thank you for listening to Flow Unleashed. If you enjoyed listening, please subscribe to get notified when our next [01:11:00] episode drops. The more people that subscribe, the better I can make the show for you. Equally, please leave a review. Your review will go a long way to helping others find this pot. Until the next time, thank you for listening to Flow Unleashed.
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